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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328123715-23082010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hi Jason,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328123715-23082010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>I'm a
little confused about your intention. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>I think you might be making this
harder than it needs to be. Everything you need is right there in 2008
NEC 690.47(C).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>Where
are you tying into the building AC distribution system? Get your GEC the
same place the existing AC distribution system at your point of interconnection
is bonded. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010>If the grounding electrode conductor for the point
of interconnection is building steel (like the delta-wye
transformer scenario described in your original post), source
your GEC there.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>Your
AC & DC grounding system(s) must be bonded together per<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010> 690.47(C)(1).
</SPAN></FONT>For "normal" interactive, non-backup systems, I use a common
ground bus for both AC
& DC (690.47(C)(5). I size it and any bonding
jumpers as the smaller of #8 CU or whatever 690.47(C)(2) &
690.47(C)(7) comes out to. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>My common GEC originates
at the AC interconnection per 690.47(C)(6) & 690.47(C)(8). I run
the common GEC to and thru the inverter(s) and out to the array thru the
raceway system.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>NOTE: Once you are on
the <SPAN class=328123715-23082010>array</SPAN> side of the inverter(s),
the GEC is a<SPAN class=328123715-23082010> DC</SPAN> equipment
ground. <SPAN class=328123715-23082010>I size it not smaller than #8 and
large enough to carry any unintentional system currents safely to ground based
on the DC configuration. This may result in multiple ground conductors running
thru different conduits. Every pipe (AC & DC) gets a ground wire in my
systems. DC raceways should also be bonded to the GEC (meyers-hub,
ground-bushing, etc.). AC raceways on the load side of an OCP do not require
this provision by code, but it doesn't hurt to go ahead and do it
anyway.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010>690.47(D) is for equipment grounding. <SPAN
class=328123715-23082010>This is a separate issue from the system GECs described
in 690.47(C). I consider it to be "enhanced" or "bonus" equipment
grounding. </SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010><U><STRONG>In addition</STRONG></U> to the requirements
of 690.47(C), you must <STRONG><U>ALSO</U></STRONG> bond your rack to the
building steel and make sure the steel is properly bonded to earth,
<EM>OR</EM> run a separate ground conductor from the rack to a
grounding electrode. Either way, this becomes another grounding electrode
system that you need to bond to your 690.47(C) GEC system. If you are bonding
all your equipment correctly, this <EM>should</EM> happen via the equipment
grounding conductor(s) mentioned in the NOTE above.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=328123715-23082010>I hope
this helps clarify it for you.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=328123715-23082010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Monotype Corsiva'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma">Matt
Lafferty</SPAN></I></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:gilligan06@gmail.com">gilligan06@gmail.com</A></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jason
Szrom<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 23, 2010 6:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV GEC to the same point as the
utilityservice GEC?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Matt,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks for the reply. I should
have clarified, but I am talking about a standard grid-tied, non-backup
system.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I’m still not quite sure I have
any solid code sections to back up my assumption that it is OK to tie the
inverter GEC to the nearest steel, rather than running all the way back to the
water main (where the utility service entrance GEC is tied).
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">If we have an inverter mounted
on a roof, are you saying we can or cannot go to the closest building steel with
the GEC? 690.47(C)(6) sounds like we have to go back to the water main. While
690.47(D) sounds like we are supposed to tie to the nearest building steel
(“Grounding electrodes shall be installed… as close as practicable to the
location of roof-mounted photovoltaic arrays”).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks for any
clarifications,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jason M.
Szrom, PE<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Engineer<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">Solar Energy Systems,
LLC<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">718-389-1545
x13<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Matt
Lafferty<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:01 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV GEC to the same point as
the utility service GEC?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Good
questions, Jason. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No. Yes
(2008 NEC 690.47(C) & (D)).</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Alternative
considerations that might result in a "maybe": Does the system in question have
storage (i.e. batteries)? Is your POCC on a Delta system? (your hi-rise example
says Wye... But if it is directly tied to a Delta system, you might gotta run
back to basement.)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If you
are talking about a standard, grid-tied, non-backup system, and the AC
distribution between your tie-in and the utility is suitably sized for the PV,
you should hit the GE system where your AC system is getting
it's neutral bond. (Closest steel OK for PV grounding electrode.) Equipment
ground, same thing. Be sure to run an equipment grounding conductor from
the inverter to the array (i.e. don't just bond the rack to building steel).
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regarding
your Additional Info items:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1.
Yep.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2. Some
people on this list and in the AHJ community would argue that the AC
side of the inverter in this case IS a separately derived system in all
cases (I'm not among that bunch). Either way, the output of your entire
system is going thru the building's AC distribution system. ESPECIALLY if
you are on the secondary of a WYE xfrmer, you can and SHOULD source your PV GEC
where the xfrmer neutral is bonded. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. You
are right. The various provisions of 690.47(C) allow/require this. In
particular, (C)5 & 6.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The
underlying principle that counts here is, "Get your GEC where your AC source
gets its system ground." </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Monotype Corsiva'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Matt "I'm no
building inspector" Lafferty</SPAN></I></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jason
Szrom<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:38 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [RE-wrenches] PV GEC to the
same point as the utility service GEC?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Questions: Does the PV GEC have to be bonded to the
ground electrode system at the same point as the utility service equipment GEC?
Is there a code section to back this up?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Additional info:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoListParagraph>1.<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">
</SPAN>The DC side of the inverter is a separately derived system and therefore
needs a GEC to a ground electrode.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoListParagraph>2.<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">
</SPAN>The AC side of the inverter is not a separately derived system therefore
250.30(A)(7) does not apply. This section states that AC separately derived
systems should be grounded to the nearest ground electrode (building steel in
many cases) and therefore does not need to be bonded to the same point as the
utility service GEC.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoListParagraph>3.<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">
</SPAN>My thought process is this: The PV GEC can be bonded to the nearest
ground electrode as long as this electrode is tied to the same ground electrode
as the utility service electrode, forming one complete ‘ground electrode
system’. My opinion is that this setup is analogous to this example which is
regularly seen in the field. High rise building with structural steel
bonded to water main with utility service GEC bonded as well. Delta-wye
step-down transformer on an upper level with the derived neutral on the
secondary bonded to closest building steel. Yet there is still an equipment
grounding connection to both the primary and secondary sides of the transformer.
This implies that it is OK and even preferable to tie the PV GEC to the nearest
ground electrode, but I can’t find any evidence or section in the code
that confirms or denies this.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks for any input,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Jason<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jason M.
Szrom, PE<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Engineer<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">Solar Energy Systems,
LLC<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">1205 Manhattan
Ave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">Suite 1210<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">Brooklyn, NY
11222<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #244061">718-389-1545
x13<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: #244061; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.solaresystems.com/"><SPAN
style="COLOR: #244061">www.solarEsystems.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
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