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Brian makes a good point, although I'm not sure it's the cause of
these issue. All of the portable gennies I have seen have the
neutral bonded to the chassis/frame internally. This can't be
correctly tied into an inverter system, as this arrangement creates
a ground loop. This can't be avoided in a fully Code-compliant way -
the closest is to ground the gennie to a separate ground rod, not
bonded to the system ground, and located a long ways away. <br>
<br>
All inverter/generators that I have seen float the neutral, a much
better arrangement in an off-grid application.<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span class="il"><b style="">Allan</b></span><b
style=""> Sindelar</b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank"><span class="il">Allan</span>@positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
<b style="">Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3201 Calle Marie<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b style="">505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span></p>
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<br>
On 8/19/2010 6:02 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:69FFF3377EEF8747A4FDE2CC20CD1DED013ADA81506B@REDEXCH.aeesolar.local"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Mick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Are you sure that the neutral is isolated from
the frame on that
“portable” generator? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">If so, it’s a strange generator indeed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Brian Teitelbaum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">AEE Solar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium
medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181,
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3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Mick
Abraham<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] DR2424 inverters charging
poorly: three units in
two days!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings, Mechanics~ Please review my
problem du semaine
and chime in if you are so inspired. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My prior experience with the DR series
Trace inverters could
be summed up in two words: practically bombproof! <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(There was one time...way back in the
day...when a barely
broken in unit stopped charging with adequate amperage,
and...thinking...there
was some screwy behavior on the LED indicators and maybe
something else. That
issue was resolved under warranty and was declared by Trace
tech support to
involve the "triacs".)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Last month I visited two customer sites
right after one
another. Site #1 has a single DR2424, 120 volts from the <b><i>portable</i></b>
generator, transferred fine...no problems...but would only
deliver a puny five
amps to the battery, regardless of tweaks to the "battery
size" &
"charge rate" knobs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Site #2...the very next day...has twin
DR2424 units, similar
OK voltage from the<b><i> portable</i></b> genset, similar
normal seeming
behavior, series stacking cable in place, but a similarly
puny DC amperage
delivery to the battery. This pair was slightly higher on DC
amperage...about 7
amps per unit. Tweaks had no effect. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">********************************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In fairness to Site #2, some weeks
prior...the genset had been
newly purchased and would not maintain output AC when
connected to the inverter
pair. I inherited a new set of customers when nobody else
seemed to know what
to try. I ungrounded the generator plug connection and
things took off...and
the charging amps were A-OK. Then...as a good safety minded
technician...I
grounded from the metal ground lug on the frame of that
generator to the
client's ground rod and the otherwise routine service call
became much more
exciting. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">BANG-I fried something in the
generator...voltage regulator,
maybe. Then I remembered why I try to never help out on
equipment purchased
elsewhere. I broke my own rule...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">After an intense conversation with the
generator supplier,
the service guy agreed to fix the genny--"one time and never
bring it
back". When it came time to re-connect the repaired
generator, my new
customers wanted me to be there. I thought that would all be
ho-hum so long as
we left the frame ungrounded but then I observed the low
charger performance.
Now I suspect that something about the generator flame-out
also blew important
items in the inverter pair. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">*****************************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm writing the Wrenches to ask:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can anyone point to the likely problem on
these three
machines?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I probably can't fix this myself but
perhaps could be
encouraged to try...somebody on Ebay is selling "FET boards"
for the
DR2424 inverter. Inspiration, anyone.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Failing a local repair, does anyone
remember the flat rates
for repairs by the authorized fix it shops?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">OR: if any List participants have a
matching inverter in
inventory...or two...or three...perhaps they could contact
me off list with
pricing, etc. Neither client is likely to have the cash for
new TR-2424
inverters.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Oh, yes...if any could offer a Big Bang
theory, that would
help with my education. The neutral on that portable
generator is isolated from
ground, so the metal frame should be a non-participant in
any electrical
activity on the AC side of things. The metal frame
is...thinking...connected to
the negative of the 12v cranking battery so maybe that's a
clue. The ground rod
to which I connected is also connected to the negative of
the 24v house battery
and also is connected to AC neutral from the Trace Power
Panel. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks all around. The Wrench List is the
Bomb, but with no
loud percussive effects!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
Mick Abraham, Proprietor<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
Voice: 970-731-4675<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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