<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Kent;<div><br></div><div>Your table shows just what I found as well: too large a battery bank actually isn't as cost effective. </div><div>Also, based on the Trojan chart, you can see that a regular L16 isn't even as good as golf cart battery, but that the 2 v version doubles the cycle life.</div><div>(which makes sense, cycle life is primarily a function of plate thickness, and the 2 v version has fewer, but thicker plates.)</div><div>TO answer your question about making an L16 last longer, I'd say using the 2 v L16 is the answer.</div><div><br></div><div>I figure roughly 100 80% DOD cycles = one year, so according to that fuzzy math:</div><div><br></div><div>Exide golf cart <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>< 5 years, </div><div>a Trojan T105 <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>7 years,</div><div>a regular L16 <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>6 years,</div><div>a 2 v L16 <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>10 years</div><div> HUP <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>21 years</div><div><br></div><div>Obviously that's not true for all situations, just a ball park number that has held water in actual field experience here.</div><div>(i've seen Exides still usable after 10 years, but that's the exception, not the rule.)</div><div>If the battery bank is not oversized, you will get more bang for your buck as Kent pointed out, but the bank won't last as long as a grossly oversized one.</div><div>(BTW, a grossly undersized battery that is cycled deeper than 80%, loses lifetime amp hours as well)</div><div>The bottom line though is to reduce the system's lifetime operating costs, so a smaller, higher quality bank is best.<br><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>R. Walters</div><div><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a></div><div>Solar Engineer</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On Jul 14, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Ronald,<br>
<br>
Thanks for being so quick to follow up such useful information!<br>
Using data extracted from your graph I computed the amphours that the
battery should deliver over its lifetime:<br>
<br>
<table style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 159pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="210">
<col style="width: 53pt;" span="3" width="70"> <tbody>
<tr style="height: 30pt;" height="40">
<td class="xl66" style="height: 30pt; width: 53pt;" height="40" width="70"><u>DOD</u></td>
<td class="xl66" style="width: 53pt;" width="70"><u>Cycles</u></td>
<td class="xl63" style="width: 53pt;" width="70">LifeTime <u><font class="font5">Amphours</font></u></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">20%</td>
<td class="xl64">1500</td>
<td class="xl64">333000</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">30%</td>
<td class="xl64">1000</td>
<td class="xl64">333000</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">40%</td>
<td class="xl64">850</td>
<td class="xl64">377400</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">50%</td>
<td class="xl64">680</td>
<td class="xl64">377400</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">60%</td>
<td class="xl64">570</td>
<td class="xl64">379620</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">
<td class="xl65" style="height: 13.8pt;" height="18">80%</td>
<td class="xl64">460</td>
<td class="xl64">408480</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
I've always tried to design battery systems such that the batteries
rarely go below 50% DOD. Looking at this data makes me question that
practice. It also makes me wonder about the seven-year warranty. Even
with 20% daily discharge it looks like the batteries should be spent in
about four years. Any suggestions on how to get seven years of service
from a set of L-16s?<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ronald Paredes wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:C4A9DEBD1D5EE942A952C0C6CD78BD96C2115B@Trojmail1.trojanbattery.com" type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hello
Travis,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
apologize for any inconvenience and for not having the data more
available. We are currently working on making sure that system
designers have easy access to our data. The L16RE-2V battery does have
significantly more cycle life than the L16E-AC battery. The “AC” part
actually stands for Access and Cleaning. The AC Series batteries were
designed for floor scrubbers, sweepers, and aerial work platforms. The
RE Series batteries, on the other hand, were specifically designed to
meet the challenges of RE applications. I prepared a graph for you and
for the rest of the wrenches. Please feel free to contact me if you
need additional data. Please let me know if you would like the MS Excel
version of the chart. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><Mail Attachment.png></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ronald
Paredes<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Technical
Product Manager – Renewable Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: maroon;">Trojan
Battery Company<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">12380
Clark Street <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Santa
Fe Springs, CA 90670<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tel:
(562)236-3000 Ext. 3066<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fax:
(562)236-3279<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rparedes@trojanbattery.com">rparedes@trojanbattery.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.trojanbattery.com/">www.trojanbattery.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: maroon;">Trojan
Battery Company - Clean Energy for Life™</span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Travis
Creswell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Greetings
Esteemed Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">I searched
the archives and didn’t find a specific reference to my question so
please accept my apology in advance if this has already been covered.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Are the 2v
Trojan L16s a much better option than the “standard” (non-re, 370 Ah)
L16? Local distributor tells me they are specially formulated for
renewable energy. They have a 7yr warranty vs. 6 months for the
standard L16 which is pretty attractive. kWh capacity wise they are
the same. But I can’t find any actual cycle life curves for either
battery which is a pretty critical data point in my mind. (would it
kill Trojan to publish that on their website????) My cost on the 2v
L16 is nearly 50% more than the standard L16 so it’s certainly worth
doing some homework.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">It’s time
to replace a set (3 strings of 4) of L16’s that I’m sure have been
abused in a full time off grid residence. They won’t even make it
through the night anymore. I adopted this system several years ago and
found a severely sulfated one yr old set of chronically under charged
batteries that had replaced a set that they had gotten less than 2yrs
out of. Most of the usual suspects….small solar array, both solar and
gen charge settings left at the factory defaults, Tri-metric was there
but not installed, and customer who didn’t pay attention because he
didn’t have the time. On at least several occasions the customer let
the electrolyte level drop to the point where the plates are exposed.
I immediately upped the charge settings then over the last 3yrs I’ve
increased the solar to just over 2kW, replaced the tired 8kW generator
with 12kW and added a second 4024. All of these upgrades should lead
to much a better life for the next set of batteries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">If the
budget wasn’t such a major concern I’d like to get them into a set of
HUP’s which I still might be able to. A comparable set of HUP’s is
just over 2x’s the money but they offer at least 3 times the life on
paper anyway. We’ve got numerous sets of HUPs out there. Some are
approaching 10yrs old but customers take very good care of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Thanks in
advance for any input or suggestions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Travis
Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Ozark
Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 3pt;"><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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