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Wrenches<br>
The only time I ever see L16s last this long is when they are
over-sized so much that they can lose half of their capacity and still
satisfy the customer. Batteries are considered worn out when they only
hold 80% of their original capacity. If the customer really only needs
40-50% of the original capacity sold to them, them might get 10 years
with really good care. <br>
David<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">David Katz</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Chief Technical Officer</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">AEE Solar</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">1155 <span
class="SpellE">Redway</span> Drive</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">P.O. Box 339</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span class="SpellE"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Redway</span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">,
CA 95560</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Tel (707) 825-1200</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Fax (707) 825-1202</span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"><a
href="mailto:david@aeesolar.com">dkatz@aeesolar.com</a></span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"><a
href="http://www.aeesolar.com/">www.aeesolar.com</a></span><span
style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: Arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<br>
On 7/1/2010 3:47 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:026101cb190a$df189a50$9d49cef0$@com" type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have
seen many Surrette
battery banks of two series strings in parallel last 10 to 12 years.
Also have
had a few with three string banks go that long. All were well designed
systems
with homeowners providing good maintenance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>The
Office
of Tom Duffy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate UL-16 HC problem<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Jay<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Higher
charge settings, proper absorb times (do the math) and
absorb voltage settings, diligent maintenance and twice yearly good
EQs, on a
single series connected, properly sized string, of quality L16s, will
yield at
least 10 to 12 years. Maybe not on a Deka, Exide or even Interstate
which have
thinner plates than Trojan or Surrette. I have seen some 14 year
strings in
use, though they were pretty well exhausted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Now
I’m only talking about single series banks. There is no hope
for parallel banks without a lot of extra time and work and even then
not the
life were talking about here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Remember
that 8 400 AH L16s in a 48 volt string is a rather
small-small cabin, for three days autonomy, so proper sizing is a must
for good
life. It’s really about cycles because the positive plate is finite and
at the
hoped for end to its life there is really no positive plate left. Most
of the
batteries out there however will die from sulfation suffocation long
before
this end.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> Tom
Duffy</span><span style="color: green;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: rgb(153, 204, 0);">
Systems Design Engineer</span><span style="color: rgb(153, 204, 0);"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"><img
id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:part1.03030404.02090009@aeesolar.com"
height="80" width="218"></span><span style="color: green;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz">tom@thesolar.biz</a></span><span
style="color: green;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">
575-539-2111 X 301</span><span style="color: green;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(153, 51, 0);">Confidentiality
Notice</span></strong><span
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This
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<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>jay
peltz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate UL-16 HC problem</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">HI Tom,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you saying that you are seeing 14 years on a
single
string of L-16's?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If so I would like to hear your charging
recommendations.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">jay<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">peltz power<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:32 AM, The Office of Tom
Duffy wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Bob</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">Yes
the problem is hard sulfation due to chronically under
charging. The absorb time and voltage is the most critical charge mode
for
charging batteries. The default settings on inverters and charge
controllers
are always way too short, so they hold the batteries in absorb for a
little
while, then go to float, leaving the batteries under charged forever,
thus we
get hard sulfation. This is what you have here. Typically two parallel
strings
will yield about 6 ½ years of life in a system that is used off grid.
While a
single series string will yield 10 to 14 years (properly maintained) 14
years
is not the rule however. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">A
bit of due diligence is now required to get these back, (and
they may not be worth it). Separate the two strings and give them 62
volts for
10 hours; you’ll have to watch them so they don’t get too hot. Set the
absorb
settings below and give them about three weeks. If there is some
improvement in
capacity, another EQ; 61 volts for two hours may just do it. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">With
the Magnum 48 volt inverter I calculate the absorb time at 5
hours, now typically the absorb charge should be about 58.8 volts but,
most
batteries die because of under charge so I would set the absorb voltage
at
59.4. You may have to update the software for the Magnum control panel
to get
more programming flexibility.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">The
MX60 with 6 of the 175s should be set to absorb for as long as
possible, I think the last software version allows 4 hours. I
calculated absorb
time with this setup is 19.6 hours which is not possible, so just keep
the
controller from going to float for as long as you can.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";"><ns0:city><ns0:place><span
style="color: green;">Concord</span></ns0:place></ns0:city><span
style="color: green;"> makes a real nice 915 AH 2 volt cell which
should give a
decade plus life, for the next bank. I would avoid parallel strings at
all
cost. If you feel this is too large a bank then use the 660 AH 2 volt.
You can
always call me 575-539-2111 if you have questions. I have been in the
battery
business almost 45 years.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> Tom
Duffy</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: rgb(153, 204, 0);">
Systems Design Engineer</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz">tom@thesolar.biz</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: green;">
575-539-2111 X 301</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-family: "Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"; color: teal;">Although
no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a
large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: green;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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