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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here is a bit more on how RE-BULK and RE-FLOAT interact with
the ABSORB timer. All battery voltages are default and are given as 12VDC
nominal, multiply by 2 for 24V and 4 for 48V systems. All of the following is
true for grid-tie GV or GT FXs only. <br>
<br>
<b>Definitions:</b> <br>
<br>
<b>BULK</b> – Constant high current increasing battery voltage to reach
absorption stage. <br>
<br>
<b>Absorption (ABSORB)</b> – Constant high battery voltage (target 14.4
volts), tapering current as battery capacity is filled. FX can charge or sell
to this voltage target. <br>
<br>
<b>FLOAT</b> – Charging cycle is complete from absorption stage, constant
low voltage (default 13.6 volts) trickle charge to maintain full battery. FX
can charge or sell to this voltage target. <br>
<br>
<b>SellRE</b> – Charging cycle also completed, constant low voltage
(target 13.0 volts) target similar to Float. Sell RE is typically set lower
than float in order to minimize trickle charge to battery and force more
renewable energy to be exported from the FX inverter. FX can only sell(not
charge) to this voltage target. <br>
<br>
<b>Equalize (EQ)</b> – High voltage (target >15 volts) over charge of
the batteries meant to bubble electrolyte which stirs it up to maintain equal
concentration throughout the battery, and to create equal cell voltages
throughout the complete battery string. FX can charge or sell to this voltage
target. <br>
<br>
<b>Pass thru</b> – the FX is not converting any power and is silent <br>
<br>
All the stages above have target DC voltages associated with them. For
instance, if the FX is in Float mode, the target voltage for the battery is
13.6 volts. While grid is available the FX can draw current from grid to
maintain 13.6 volts. If a DC renewable energy source is supplying enough power
to bring the batteries above the 13.6 volt target, the FX can send current to
AC loads or back out the grid input to keep the battery at 13.6 volts. The FX
is a bi-directional power conversion device that will do everything possible to
maintain 13.6 volts. <br>
<br>
Without grid input, the FX will not be able to actively maintain the battery
voltage at the current target, although the FX will still go through the same
stages, keeping track of battery target and timers. If the DC sources are less
then the AC load demands, the battery voltage will fall. This can trigger a
REFLOAT or REBULK dependent on how low the battery voltage falls. Conversely,
if the DC sources exceed the AC load demands, the FX cannot maintain the
battery voltage at any specific target. Battery voltage will rise to what ever
voltage the DC source controller allows. <br>
<br>
Typical FX charger behavior: <br>
<br>
On initial DC power up of all grid-tie FX inverters, a 1 hour stock absorption
exists. Once AC power has been accepted by the FX, the BULK cycle begins. <br>
<br>
After the battery voltage reaches the Absorption set point, the absorption
timer starts counting down and maintains absorption voltage for the absorption
time. Watching the absorption time is the indication of how long the FX will be
in the absorption mode. <br>
<br>
After the absorption mode is finished, the next stage is Sell RE. Sell RE is a
target that the FX cannot charge too, but can export renewable energy if the
source is powerful enough. Towards the end of the day, typical renewable
energy, like solar, is not available so the FX cannot export any more power. In
this event the FX will go silent/passthru, which means it stops any power
conversion. <br>
<br>
The battery usually still has small DC loads, so battery voltage may slowly
fall during the night. If the battery voltage falls below the RE-FLOAT setpoint
(12.5 volts) then the FX will transition to the FLOAT stage and charge the
battery to the FLOAT target (13.6 volts) for the FLOAT time (1 hour). After the
FLOAT timer has expired, the FX returns to the SellRE stage and/or silent/passthru.
<br>
<br>
If the battery falls past the REFLOAT setpoint, below 12.4 volts (which we call
RE-BULK), the FX will change to the BULK stage and the absorption time
remaining will start counting up. The absorption time remaining will count up
in real time as long as the battery voltage is 12.4 volts or below. The
absorption time remaining counts in double time if the battery voltage is less
than 12.0 volts and counts in quadruple time if battery voltage is less than
11.6 volts. In other words the lower the battery voltage goes the more time the
system will have to remain in the absorption stage up to the absorption time
setpoint. <br>
<br>
When charging sources (grid or renewable energy) are available again then the
FX can satisfy the absorption stage and continue on to the SellRE stage again. <br>
<br>
Although the stages may seem confusing, they are all dependent on battery
voltage and what target the FX has. The status/meters 1st screen top line
always tells you what the FX is doing and what the target is. The first word is
what the FX is actually doing (PASSTHRU, CHARGE, SELL) and the second word is
the target (BULK, FLOAT, SELLRE, and EQ) where the FX wants to be. Other
sources/loads in you system can achieve these targets besides the FX. All
timers for any particular stage can be satisfied by the target voltage being
maintained for that stages time. The only stage that has no timers associated
with it is SellRE. <br>
<br>
One more thing to keep in mind, charger modes (BULK, ABSORB, FLOAT) take
precedence over SELLRE. Setting SELLRE at or below REFLOAT or REFLOAT at or
below RE-BULK, will cause unusual system behavior.<span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Steve Higgins. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sr Application Engineer. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Outback Power Systems. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>19009 62nd Ave Ne </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arlington Wa 98223</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>360-618-4313</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>R Ray
Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 05, 2010 8:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here's the latest comments from my customer on this. Seems
to be just a problem under reduced array output.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Thanks again for everybody's
valuable input.</span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>R. Walters<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Solar Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>From:
</span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>"Roger
L. Johnson" <<a href="mailto:rogerjohnson@itltd.com">rogerjohnson@itltd.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Date:
</span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>April
5, 2010 9:02:03 AM MDT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>To:
</span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Ray
Walters <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Cc:
</span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Andy
O'Reilly <<a href="mailto:andy@positiveenergysolar.com">andy@positiveenergysolar.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ray
– I appreciate all the comments and recommendations relative to the grid
voltage parameters. However, in my opinion, there is no data to support the
contention that this is a source of the FX BULK CHARGING behavior. My reasons
for coming to this conclusion are the following:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>After
a week and a half of careful monitoring, I have not seen any grid
input/output voltage which varies from 123 <u>+</u>1 VAC. </span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>No.
1 has been the case under all current conditions, ranging from heavy house
load use to sell mode currents as high as 10 aac. </span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We
have never seen a “STOP SELL” code which indicates over or
under limit VAC.</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
We have now had over a week of consecutive days of NO SNOW LOAD, that is to
say, the arrays have been clear every morning. We start each morning with a
battery voltage of 25.6 which, as the first sun falls on the arrays, quickly moves
up to the FLOAT level and the new array CC’s go into GT MODE and the
systems starts selling. The system sells consistently depending on cloud cover
and stops selling at the end of the day (sunset). The STOP SELL code at the end
of the day is No. 8 or SAVE COMMAND (per the MATE manual).<br>
<br>
Yesterday (Sunday), we generated 31 kWH off the arrays and sold 5 kWH back to
KCE over the 24 hour period. We had a fairly heavy “house load”
yesterday since we pumped the deep well for about 2 hours. This morning, we started
selling at 0815 hours and expect to be selling throughout the day.<br>
<br>
I took the time to go over my daily logs on the system since the “turn
on” in December. The issue associated with the BULK CHARGING CYCLE seems
to always have been associated with heavy snow load and the slow melt off
during the following days. This takes us back to the question that OutBack
seems to have trouble answering: What are the conditions (parameter values)
that FX uses to kick the system into a day long BULK CHARGING CYCLE? During the
times when I experienced this behavior, I saw STOP SELL CODES of 7,8, and 10.
Again we have never seen code No. 3, VAC over voltage. If we knew this
information, we might very well be able to understand the behavior. <br>
<br>
In summary, I do not think we have a system issue as much as I think we have a
vendor issue (not willing to disclose needed info). I suggest that I continue
to monitor the system on a daily basis and I will let you know if we experience
anything interesting. I do think it is worthwhile for you to continue to obtain
the information relative to the FX BULK CHARGING criteria from OutBack.<br>
<br>
RLJ<br>
<br>
<br>
on 4/4/10 10:53 PM, Ray Walters at <a href="x-msg://341/ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Here's
something else that would be easy to try, and wouldn't hurt anything.<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>R.
Walters<br>
<a href="x-msg://341/ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><br>
Solar Engineer<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span
style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>"Steve Higgins" <<a
href="x-msg://341/shiggins@outbackpower.com">shiggins@outbackpower.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>April 4, 2010 10:02:43 AM MDT<br>
<b>To: </b>"RE-wrenches" <<a
href="x-msg://341/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems<br>
Reply-To: </b>RE-wrenches <<a
href="x-msg://341/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
Not that I'm aware of... We just use it as a quick fix for those customers with
a less than perfect grid connection. Unfortunately with some grid
connections even this doesn't fix the problem. <br>
<br>
It Open the voltage window from 108 to 132 and frequency to +/- 2 Hz. <br>
<br>
It would be nice to know what the disconnect, or stop sell reason is... it
would give us a better understanding of what is going on.<br>
<br>
<br>
Steve Higgins. <br>
Sr Application Engineer. <br>
Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. <br>
Outback Power Systems. <br>
19009 62nd Ave Ne <br>
Arlington Wa 98223<br>
360-618-4313<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="x-msg://341/re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On Behalf Of <a href="x-msg://341/penobscotsolar@midmaine.com">penobscotsolar@midmaine.com</a><br>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:26 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems<br>
<br>
That's a great tip Steve. Is there a downside to changing this setting?<br>
<br>
Daryl<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ray,<br>
<br>
If you go to the Status FX Sell menu what is the disconnect reason when<br>
it does this?<br>
<br>
Also have you set the Grid Tie Authority from IEEE to User, when<br>
customers are all the way out at the end of the line sometimes the grid<br>
isn't as pretty and UL1741 and 1547 require so if the Grid Tie Authority<br>
is IEEE the inverter can disconnect prematurely. Changing this to User<br>
will open up the disconnect windows a bit so you don't disconnect<br>
prematurely.<br>
<br>
Steve Higgins.<br>
Sr Application Engineer.<br>
Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr.<br>
Outback Power Systems.<br>
19009 62nd Ave Ne<br>
Arlington Wa 98223<br>
360-618-4313<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="x-msg://341/re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On Behalf Of R Ray<br>
Walters<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:54 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems<br>
<br>
I considered that there could be something happening due to the grid, as<br>
this guy is way out on the end of the line going into his own utility<br>
transformer.<br>
But then the inverter should show a fault light, and it should try back<br>
again, once the grid voltage drops.<br>
Instead it initiates a full charge cycle and will not connect till the<br>
next day.<br>
<br>
R. Walters<br>
<a href="x-msg://341/ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><br>
Solar Engineer<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mar 30, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>HI Ray,<br>
<br>
Have you checked the grid voltage to see if there is variation during</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>the day
which would be enough to kick the inverters out of connection?<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
Brian Teitelbaum<br>
AEE Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="x-msg://341/re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>[<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On Behalf Of R Ray<br>
Walters<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Sent:
Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:43 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches<br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems<br>
<br>
We currently have a Grid Tie system with a pair of Outback inverters</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>that are
regularly dropping out of sell mode, and letting the arrays<br>
spend all day charging the battery bank.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It seems to
do this several times a week, and the customer is losing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>substantial
production, and gassing the batteries too much.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It will
reset itself the next day, or the customer resets it by</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>turning off
the inverters manually.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The system
is 24 v, with an old array of 1800 watts running through 2</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>FM60s, and
a new array of 2800 watts running through another pair of<br>
FM60s.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The battery
bank is HUP about 4100 Ah @ 24 v (3 strings of 1375 Ah</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>each) Big
battery, I know, but the customer is an electrical engineer,<br>
who wanted maximum storage capacity.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
Outback tech support has not resolved the issue, and this has turned</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>into
several service calls, and customer frustration.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We've tried
running the controllers through the HUB, and also</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>independently,
and that doesn't make a difference.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I have
numerous Outback GT installs dating back to 2003, and have</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>never had a
problem like this.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Any help or
advice would as always be greatly appreciated.<br>
<br>
Thank you in advance fellow Wrenches,<br>
<br>
R. Walters<br>
<a href="x-msg://341/ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><br>
Solar Engineer<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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