<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Regarding the first part: yep, it let me keep the customer's system
working on a job in the middle of nowhere using what I had on the truck
(famous cop-out words, I know).<br>
<br>
Regarding the 100% rating, Robin, isn't that provided by the
manufacturer, determined through the listing process? If CBI had it
tested and listed by a NRTL to 100%, that would qualify it, and the
Code would recognize it. If not, it's 80%. Can CBI simply provide a
thumbs-up (with documentation) or down?<br>
<br>
Thanks, Allan<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
<meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">
<meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11">
<link rel="File-List" href="signature_files/filelist.xml">
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:DocumentProperties>
<o:Author>pe</o:Author>
<o:LastAuthor>pe</o:LastAuthor>
<o:Revision>2</o:Revision>
<o:TotalTime>1</o:TotalTime>
<o:Created>2009-12-09T22:29:00Z</o:Created>
<o:LastSaved>2009-12-09T22:30:00Z</o:LastSaved>
<o:Pages>1</o:Pages>
<o:Words>52</o:Words>
<o:Characters>298</o:Characters>
<o:Company>pe</o:Company>
<o:Lines>2</o:Lines>
<o:Paragraphs>1</o:Paragraphs>
<o:CharactersWithSpaces>349</o:CharactersWithSpaces>
<o:Version>11.9999</o:Version>
</o:DocumentProperties>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:SpellingState>Clean</w:SpellingState>
<w:GrammarState>Clean</w:GrammarState>
<w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
<w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>
<w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
<w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
<w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]--><!
--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">
</w:LatentStyles>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;}
span.il
{mso-style-name:il;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0in;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-ansi-language:#0400;
mso-fareast-language:#0400;
mso-bidi-language:#0400;}
</style>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="2050"/>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/>
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span class="il"><b style="">Allan</b></span><b
style=""> Sindelar</b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target="_blank"><span
class="il">Allan</span>@positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
<b style="">Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3201 Calle Marie<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b style="">505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
Robin Gudgel wrote:
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4BB7ABD7.9040608@midnitesolar.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">The CBI QY series of DC breakers have an arc
shoot that is required to
<br>
quench a DC arc. This breaker would work just fine as an AC breaker
although
<br>
is not marked as such. I am not sure if the AC breakers (QL, QZ and QZD
<br>
series) have the arc shoot. I was told years ago by CBI that the AC and
DC
<br>
breakers are built the same, but I had never broke one open to see if
the
<br>
arc shoot is present on AC breakers until today. The AC breakers do in
fact
<br>
have the same arc shoot as the DC breakers. CBI just marks the outside
of
<br>
the breakers differently. You don't want to get called on the AC vs. DC
<br>
issue by an inspector because you are going to lose that battle. It
makes
<br>
things a bit confusing to have a DC breaker in an AC circuit even
though
<br>
they are identical inside. I believe Allan Sindelar was in the field
and had
<br>
a situation where it saved a bunch of time and hassle to use a QY
breaker
<br>
instead of a QL that he did not have on hand. I had told him that the
DC
<br>
breaker would function just fine as an AC breaker. That installation
was
<br>
safe, but an inspector would probably make you change to an AC breaker.
<br>
<br>
I remember years ago seeing in print that a Hydraulic/Magnetic breaker
could
<br>
be used at 100% duty rating where as a thermal breaker could only be
used at
<br>
80%. I have searched and searched to find this written explanation
again to
<br>
no avail. I thought it was in the NEC, but I now believe I was wrong.
If the
<br>
NEC does not allow the use of H/M breakers to be used at 100% duty
cycle,
<br>
then it just is not allowed. It is true that the H/M breakers are not
<br>
affected by temperature like thermal breakers are, but that in itself
<br>
doesn't overrule the NEC. I personally have been spreading this myth to
<br>
hundreds of installers for 10 years. I now believe I was wrong. Sure
wish I
<br>
could find that written explanation from years ago! Perhaps it came
from CBI
<br>
or some other circuit breaker manufacturer? (see below) Maybe an old
version of the NEC?
<br>
The NEC is the top authority, so please use the same de-rating
guidelines
<br>
for CBI as for thermal breakers.
<br>
Sorry for perpetuating this widely accepted myth.
<br>
</blockquote>
PS. Robin found this and thinks that this may have been one of the
texts but still
<br>
does not override NEC requirements
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">From Heinamann:</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:4BB7ABD7.9040608@midnitesolar.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Continuous operation at 100%current.
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:4BB7ABD7.9040608@midnitesolar.com" type="cite">There
is no such assurance with a thermal device, which may
<br>
fail to carry rated current when subjected to above normal ambient
<br>
temperatures. A Heinemann breaker rated at 20 amperes, for example,
<br>
will sustain 20 amperes, even at elevated temperatures. Derating
<br>
and other forms of temperature compensation are unnecessary.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Robin Gudgel
<br>
MidNite Solar
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">-------- Original Message --------
<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing
<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:35:49 -0600
<br>
From: Allan Sindelar <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><allan@positiveenergysolar.com></a>
<br>
Reply-To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>, RE-wrenches
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
<br>
<br>
Yes, they are 100% duty rated. Also, a little-known fact about the CBI
breakers used by Midnite and Outback, gleaned from conversations with
Robin Gudgel: because of this hydraulic/magnetic construction, all are
capable of controlling both AC and DC, even if not listed as both.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>