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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Joel,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we are all pretty much on the same
page.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m speaking mainly about a full
time off grid residence, commonly with flooded lead acid and of course a fossil
back up generator.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Most of my full time off gridders don’t
even need to their generator from late April to early October. They report
that it’s normal that by 10 or 11 am their CC is in float. Then
winter sets in with frequent 2-3 week periods of clouds. Like Walt said,
where is the magic cloudy day number for me? Is it the average of 3 weeks
of sun and 3 weeks of clouds for 1.5 weeks of autonomy? That’s
grossly oversized in the summer and still inadequate in the winter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>From my view, if you need xxx kWh’s
per month to live that’s how many you need, and days of autonomy aren’t
that meaningful when you can only generate 1/3<sup>rd</sup> of that with your
array. You have to run the generator just as many hours per month
regardless of how many days of autonomy, right? And I believe that if you
factor in charge efficiency and self discharge the larger the bank has a few
more hrs per month of generator usage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Joel Davidson<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
6:38 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName>] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?
wasconcordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hello Travis,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think that 2 days is not enough battery autonomy in
the Ozarks and many other locations unless you have a fossil fuel
generator to carry you through long cloudy periods. <st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place>
autonomy is site and load specific. I've done systems with as little as 1
day and as much as 3 weeks at 80% depth of discharge. Lately, I've been
generically specing 1.5 days of autonomy at 50% d.o.d. to get the dialogue
started with the customer.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I use to spec up to 4 parallel strings of T-105s or
L-16s in 2, 4, and 8 batteries in series, but now I keep the number of strings
down to 3 or less and prefer 1 or 2 strings of big 2-volt cells to
reduce the number of cells and connections.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Southern California</span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> urban and suburban
grid-tie PV systems are almost all non-battery although we still get asked
about emergency power - until they hear how much it adds to the cost of a
grid-tie PV system.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Joel Davidson</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:tcreswell@ozarkenergyservices.com"
title="tcreswell@ozarkenergyservices.com">Travis Creswell</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">'RE-wrenches'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday, December
01, 2009 2:15 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was concordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>IMHO, one of the worst design
boo-boo’s is going past more then 2 days of autonomy. Personally, I
no longer size much over one day because it’s my anecdotal observation that
most batteries die of old age and being ignored long before cycles get
them. Speaking mostly about quality deep cycle flooded.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Lots of good things result;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-50%-75% smaller battery bank means a
$20,000 battery bank just turned into $5,000 bank which frees up a ton of money
for more modules and now-a-days you can buy a lot more PV with that
money. More array mean far less reliance on autonomy. I’ll
take the trade all year long. In the summer we have 3 to 4 weeks of sun
and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to 4 week stretches with 1
sunny day. Autonomy doesn’t really matter in either case from what
I’ve seen. The larger the bank means more self discharge losses,
which on large battery banks gets significant as they age. 5-15 years
later you’ll still have all that array but no matter what you’re
looking at new battery bank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-If you study the quality deep cycle
manufacturers literature you’ll see that you’ll see that anything
over 1 day of autonomy is too much to allow the array to actually charge the
battery bank anywhere near the recommended amps and just like rust, sulfation
never sleeps.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-Less cells to water<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-Less space required<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-Given that a surprisingly high percentage
of off gridders totally screw up on their first bank, no matter how much we all
try we might as keep the stupid tax of replacing a 2.5 yr old battery bank to a
minimum.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-All of this discussion about cross
paralleling, buss bars, TLC with a gazillion connections and multiple strings
goes away.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>-And the best part is we don’t have
to carry all of the lead into the basement and even better back out of the
basement!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just my .02. Feel free to strongly
disagree but let’s be polite about it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>R Ray Walters<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
12:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord
batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><span style='WIDOWS: 2;BORDER-SPACING: 0px 0px;ORPHANS: 2;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;word-spacing:0px'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=5 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>I used to think that
one string was optimal; until I had a single cell failure take out an entire
system for weeks. (try operating a 24 v system at 22v! )<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=5 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>I now think that 2
parallel strings is optimum, 3 is OK, and 4 is max.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>At
4 parallel strings, we start spending more time looking to make sure all
connectors are the same exact length etc. to insure equal operation.</span></font></span><font
size=5 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>But of course how do you account for varying internal resistance of the
batteries......??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I've done 4 parallel strings at 144 DC of sealed batteries on an electric
vehicle, but we were very careful with our resistances, I even switched to
smaller wire, on closer strings, and calculated out the exact resistance, so
all strings were theoretically equal. This set actually just died, but achieved
its manufacturer's predicted cycle life. (B&B battery, 350 cycles to 80%
DOD)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>So if you're careful, 4 strings can work well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Worst I've seen was 20 golf carts paralleled in a 12 v system, (10
strings) and they didn't pull the main connections from across the set, just connected
to one end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The results were very predictable, with the furthest batteries being
chronically under charged, and the closest ones being over cycled to a
premature death.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ray Walters<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:28 AM, <a href="mailto:Windsun@wind-sun.com">Windsun@wind-sun.com</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri'>You gotta wonder about why the customer bought such a
battery layout, or why the installer sold that kind of configuration (which
ever it was) with so many small batteries. We would never recommend going
over 2 parallel banks, but sometimes the "customer knows best...".</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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