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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wish I had more time to detail this but
alas….with that many strings I’m pretty sure most of the batteries
in this bank are toast. I would do a quick and dirty pass/fail test on
each battery with a hand held 100 amp load tester. I paid $20 for mine at
Harbor Freight and it’s one of my most used meters. Within just a
second or two you’ll know because some batteries will fall on their face
and I bet they are goners. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Before you unhook all the batteries for the
load test park the inverter the inverter bulk and float voltages at ~58v so it doesn’t
taper off. Then go through and check each battery. I suspect you’ll
find some at 11 and some 15 or higher all within the same string (string volts
will always add up to 58 of course). Again I bet high ones are toast and
you might be able to save to low ones.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Then you can patch together one or two
strings in effort to get the system in some sort of operational state while the
owner digests that his $12,000 ($300 each x 40) battery is toast but even if
you could fix it, it’s just a bad band-aid and he needs to pony up
another $8k-$12k for a real battery bank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Gotta go, good luck!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
11:42 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord
batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery
process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will vary
throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will just
prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a laser temp
probe on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very
low and build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates.
During this time the voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't
worry about the voltage. After a while the current will begin to
drop. This means the recovery process is working. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten
parallel strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right without
extensive monthly maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be
charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be undercharged every day.
EVERY day! So even if you recover these batteries, someone will need to test
and equalize at least every month. I really want to stress this point as
multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many thousands of tons of
batteries each year. I never design for more than two strings in parallel. Do
this and be happy.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="http://www.starlightsolar.com">www.starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>(928) 941-1660<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size=4
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color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;
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face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>,
<st1:State w:st="on">AZ</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">85367</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font
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<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;font-style:italic'>Renewable
Energy Systems Sales, Service, Installations</span></font></i><font size=4
color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<span style='orphans: 2;text-align:auto;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for the amazing responses everyone!<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Larry, it sound as though the parameters
below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in December
sunlight wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? Does it
matter if the process get’s interrupted by a few nights / cloudy
days? Do you have a preferred test approach?<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount
of resources; I want to make sure it can’t be saved.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Conrad<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><st1:personname u2:st="on">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cotuit Solar</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</st1:personname></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> </span></font></span><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> <st1:personname u2:st="on"></span>RE-wrenches</st1:personname><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [<st1:personname u2:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname>]
concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p></u1:p></div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Conrad,<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We have sold many<span
class=apple-converted-space> <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on"></span><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Concord</st1:place></st1:city></st1:place></st1:City><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>(Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries
over the years. They are the best and half of our battery sales are Deka and
Concord AGM's.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>When our mobile cus<st1:personname u2:st="on">tom</st1:personname>ers
abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant
current and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you
should never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be
tightly controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to
recover some or most capacity. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Do one battery at a time.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>1.<span class=apple-converted-space> <st1:place u2:st="on"></span><st1:place
w:st="on">Battery</st1:place></st1:place><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>temp:
77 degrees (+/-5) and stable<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of
the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage!<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>3. Monitor temperature and voltage.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the
process. Start again when the battery temperature has been lowered to room
temperature.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc,
continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow
4(a) about temp.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>5. After this process, perform a capacity
test. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This has worked for me with chronically
undercharged AGM's of all types. I have never had one vent or go into
thermal run away. At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time to try
if you have the power source and time.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
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-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'>
<div><span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'><u1:p>
<div apple-content-edited=true>
<div style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>For reference this
process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual, page 20. <a
href="http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf">http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf</a><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Larry Crutcher<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="http://www.starlightsolar.com">www.starlightsolar.com</a><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>(928) 941-1660<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad Geyser
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span><u1:p></u1:p></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p></u1:p><span style='orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'><u3:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><u3:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><u3:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">
<div link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In the vein of us on grid folks
who’s heads spin when the off grid folks start talking about charge
programming and gen set start up parameters…<u3:p></u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid
system that is only 1 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries,
which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under 10V after a
generator EQ charge). I’m sure the batteries have been abused at
least after the point that someone lowered the generator start voltage to
40V. We’re still doing fact finding on the charge parameters for
the PV and wind, but I’m wondering if there is anyone that has an opinion
on the Concorde batteries.<u3:p></u3:p></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And at least at this point, I’m glad
I had to study for some off grid questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention
the conversations on this list. : ><u3:p></u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Conrad<u3:p></u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><st1:personname u4:st="on">
<div><st1:personname u2:st="on">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cotuit Solar</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</st1:personname></div>
</div>
<div></st1:personname>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u3:p> </u3:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> </span></font></span><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Bob-O
Schultze<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:59 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> <st1:personname u4:st="on"></st1:personname></span><st1:personname u2:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [<st1:personname u4:st="on"><st1:personname u2:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname></st1:personname>]
Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><u3:p></u3:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u3:p> </u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>William,<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Nice to meet you -however briefly- at the
Solar Zoo in<span class=apple-converted-space> <st1:city u4:st="on"><st1:place u4:st="on"></st1:place></st1:city></span><st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Anaheim</st1:place></st1:city></st1:place></st1:City>.<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>If you don't see the value in being NABCEP
certified, then you shouldn't bother with it. If your state- as more than a few
have- decides to recognize it in some way that affects your pocket, then you'll
likely change your mind PDQ. I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know
about because I was Certified and the other bidder was not, but our bids were
very close in price. Low-ballers, like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>While I generally agree with you on your
point #2, it varies a lot state to state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I
understand the rules in CA are changing, enforcement is, and has always been, a
joke. In OR, you need a 4000 hour apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general
electrical classroom time to get a Renewable Energy license. A general
journeyman license is twice that. I've had inspectors come to our job site and
check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you don't lay hands on a wire without a
license. Ever hear of the like in CA? Maybe in the big cities, but nowhere else.<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We're totally on the same page about the
IBEW. If you understand that their goal is total domination of the electrical
trade everywhere, a lot of how they operate makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda
guy as a rule, but, like religion, too much of a thing is way worse than none.<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>As to experience with EMT and the like,
again it varies state to state and certainly region to region. In this neck of
the woods, if you can't bend an offset or saddle bend, you are either a new
apprentice or unemployed.<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Best, Bob-O<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u3:p> </u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William
Miller wrote:<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u3:p> </u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friends:<br>
<br>
I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:<br>
<br>
1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.<br>
<br>
2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.
Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic
grid tie system. Conversely, many electricians with the most basic
electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and
install solar-electric. Wrong again.<br>
<br>
I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force,
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded
electrician's skills. How many solar installers can actually lay an
offset into a stick of EMT? Not many. Most are glorified stereo
installers, plugging and praying.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
William Miller<u3:p></u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u3:p> </u3:p><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><u1:p><span
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