<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will vary throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will just prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify.<div><div><br></div><div>Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very low and build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time the voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't worry about the voltage. After a while the current will begin to drop. This means the recovery process is working. </div><div><br></div><div>I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right without extensive monthly maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be undercharged every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover these batteries, someone will need to test and equalize at least every month. I really want to stress this point as multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many thousands of tons of batteries each year. I never design for more than two strings in parallel. Do this and be happy.</div><div><div><div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><br></div><div>Larry Crutcher</div><div><a href="http://www.starlightsolar.com">www.starlightsolar.com</a></div><div><a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a></div><div>(928) 941-1660</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-decoration: underline; ">Retail Store & Shipping </span></div><div>2998 Shari Ave.</div><div>Yuma, AZ 85365</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-decoration: underline; ">Mailing address</span></div><div>11881 South Fortuna Road; #210</div><div>Yuma, AZ 85367</div><div><br></div><div><i>Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service, Installations</i></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Conrad Geyser wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="blue" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Thanks for the amazing responses everyone!<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Larry, it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? Does it matter if the process get’s interrupted by a few nights / cloudy days? Do you have a preferred test approach?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to make sure it can’t be saved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Conrad<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><st1:personname w:st="on"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Cotuit Solar</span></font></st1:personname><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [<st1:personname w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname>] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Conrad,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">We have sold many<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Concord</st1:place></st1:city><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord AGM's.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">When our mobile cus<st1:personname w:st="on">tom</st1:personname>ers abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to recover some or most capacity. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Do one battery at a time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">1.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>temp: 77 degrees (+/-5) and stable<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage!<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">3. Monitor temperature and voltage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature has been lowered to room temperature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc, continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow 4(a) about temp.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">5. After this process, perform a capacity test. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">This has worked for me with chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I have never had one vent or go into thermal run away. At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time to try if you have the power source and time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px; "><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px; "><div apple-content-edited="true"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; ">For reference this process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual, page 20. <a href="http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; ">Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; "><a href="http://www.starlightsolar.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; "><a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; ">(928) 941-1660<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span>On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote:<o:p></o:p></font></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></div><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px; "><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">In the vein of us on grid folks who’s heads spin when the off grid folks start talking about charge programming and gen set start up parameters…<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">I am servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid system that is only 1 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries, which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under 10V after a generator EQ charge). I’m sure the batteries have been abused at least after the point that someone lowered the generator start voltage to 40V. We’re still doing fact finding on the charge parameters for the PV and wind, but I’m wondering if there is anyone that has an opinion on the Concorde batteries.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">And at least at this point, I’m glad I had to study for some off grid questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention the conversations on this list. : ><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Conrad<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><st1:personname u2:st="on"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><st1:personname w:st="on"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Cotuit Solar</span></font></st1:personname><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></st1:personname></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black; "> </span></font></span><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: black; "><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Bob-O Schultze<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:59 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> <st1:personname u2:st="on"></st1:personname></span><st1:personname w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [<st1:personname u2:st="on"><st1:personname w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname></st1:personname>] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></font></div><u1:p></u1:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">William,<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">Nice to meet you -however briefly- at the Solar Zoo in<span class="apple-converted-space"> <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on"></st1:place></st1:city></span><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Anaheim</st1:place></st1:city>.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">If you don't see the value in being NABCEP certified, then you shouldn't bother with it. If your state- as more than a few have- decides to recognize it in some way that affects your pocket, then you'll likely change your mind PDQ. I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know about because I was Certified and the other bidder was not, but our bids were very close in price. Low-ballers, like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">While I generally agree with you on your point #2, it varies a lot state to state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I understand the rules in CA are changing, enforcement is, and has always been, a joke. In OR, you need a 4000 hour apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general electrical classroom time to get a Renewable Energy license. A general journeyman license is twice that. I've had inspectors come to our job site and check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you don't lay hands on a wire without a license. Ever hear of the like in CA? Maybe in the big cities, but nowhere else.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">We're totally on the same page about the IBEW. If you understand that their goal is total domination of the electrical trade everywhere, a lot of how they operate makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda guy as a rule, but, like religion, too much of a thing is way worse than none.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">As to experience with EMT and the like, again it varies state to state and certainly region to region. In this neck of the woods, if you can't bend an offset or saddle bend, you are either a new apprentice or unemployed.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">Best, Bob-O<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William Miller wrote:<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; ">Friends:<br><br>I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:<br><br>1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.<br><br>2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians. Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic grid tie system. Conversely, many electricians with the most basic electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and install solar-electric. Wrong again.<br><br>I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force, but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded electrician's skills. How many solar installers can actually lay an offset into a stick of EMT? Not many. Most are glorified stereo installers, plugging and praying.<br><br>Respectfully,<br><br>William Miller<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="4" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></u1:smarttagtype></u1:smarttagtype></u1:smarttagtype></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "></span><o:p> </o:p></font></div></span></span></div></span></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>