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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A DC power supply would certainly be a lot
easier to use. Lots of uses for something like this once you’ve got it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/mastech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html">http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/mastech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You could also set up an MX60 (if you have
one lying around) with 24v of batteries on the <u>PV side</u> and use it to
charge to the 12v battery. Christopher Freitas is the one who told me and
it worked great but don’t go above 24v nominal or might let the magic
smoke out of the MX60. Once you get going you can rotate the batteries in
such a way that you’re load testing the batteries while equalizing the 12v
one. Use your imagination and prepared as casual observers will think
your trying to build a perpetual motion machine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have had some very similar experiences
with sealed batteries and rarely found that all the time and effort I put into
testing them was worth it. IE; batteries appeared to come back to life
but most all died within 6 months after putting back into “normal”
service no matter how closely I watched them. It was a lot of fun and
quite educational though. I’ve even drilled out the cells caps, added
just a bit of distilled water then equalized them in effort to wet the dried
out cells in a effort to try to save the chronically overcharged sealed batteries.
I could get them to act normal albeit at reduced capacity for about 6
months then they all died too.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Conrad Geyser<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
7:01 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord
batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for the amazing responses everyone!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Larry, it sound as though the parameters
below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight
wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? Does it matter if
the process get’s interrupted by a few nights / cloudy days? Do you
have a preferred test approach?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount
of resources; I want to make sure it can’t be saved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Conrad<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cotuit
Solar</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 30, 2009
11:17 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName>] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Conrad,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>We have sold many <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Concord</st1:City></st1:place>
(Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and half
of our battery sales are Deka and Concord AGM's.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>When our mobile cus<st1:PersonName w:st="on">tom</st1:PersonName>ers
abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant
current and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you
should never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be
tightly controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to
recover some or most capacity. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Do one battery at a time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>1. <st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place> temp: 77 degrees (+/-5) and
stable<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will
be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>3. Monitor temperature and voltage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the process. Start again when
the battery temperature has been lowered to room temperature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc, continue charging for 4 hours.
Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow 4(a) about temp.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>5. After this process, perform a capacity test. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>This has worked for me with chronically undercharged AGM's of all types.
I have never had one vent or go into thermal run away. At the price of
these batteries, it is worth the time to try if you have the power source and
time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>For reference this
process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual, page 20. <a
href="http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf">http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="http://www.starlightsolar.com">www.starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>(928) 941-1660<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'></span></span>On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</span><span style='orphans: 2;text-align:auto;widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:
0px'><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">
<div link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In the vein of us on grid folks
who’s heads spin when the off grid folks start talking about charge
programming and gen set start up parameters…<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid
system that is only 1 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries,
which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under 10V after a
generator EQ charge). I’m sure the batteries have been abused at
least after the point that someone lowered the generator start voltage to
40V. We’re still doing fact finding on the charge parameters for
the PV and wind, but I’m wondering if there is anyone that has an opinion
on the Concorde batteries.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And at least at this point, I’m glad
I had to study for some off grid questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention
the conversations on this list. : ><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Conrad<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><st1:personname u2:st="on">
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cotuit
Solar</span></font></st1:PersonName><font color=black><span style='color:black'><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div></st1:personname>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> </span></font></span><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Bob-O
Schultze<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:59 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> <st1:personname u2:st="on"></span><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [<st1:personname u2:st="on"><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:personname></st1:PersonName>] Nabcep - grid
tie---Off grid</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div><u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>William,<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Nice to meet you -however briefly- at the
Solar Zoo in<span class=apple-converted-space> <st1:city u2:st="on"></span><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Anaheim</st1:city></st1:City></st1:place>.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>If you don't see the value in being NABCEP
certified, then you shouldn't bother with it. If your state- as more than a few
have- decides to recognize it in some way that affects your pocket, then you'll
likely change your mind PDQ. I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know
about because I was Certified and the other bidder was not, but our bids were
very close in price. Low-ballers, like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>While I generally agree with you on your
point #2, it varies a lot state to state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I
understand the rules in CA are changing, enforcement is, and has always been, a
joke. In OR, you need a 4000 hour apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general
electrical classroom time to get a Renewable Energy license. A general
journeyman license is twice that. I've had inspectors come to our job site and
check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you don't lay hands on a wire without a
license. Ever hear of the like in CA? Maybe in the big cities, but nowhere else.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We're totally on the same page about the
IBEW. If you understand that their goal is total domination of the electrical
trade everywhere, a lot of how they operate makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda
guy as a rule, but, like religion, too much of a thing is way worse than none.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>As to experience with EMT and the like,
again it varies state to state and certainly region to region. In this neck of
the woods, if you can't bend an offset or saddle bend, you are either a new
apprentice or unemployed.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Best, Bob-O<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William
Miller wrote:<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friends:<br>
<br>
I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:<br>
<br>
1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.<br>
<br>
2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.
Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic
grid tie system. Conversely, many electricians with the most basic
electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and
install solar-electric. Wrong again.<br>
<br>
I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force,
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded
electrician's skills. How many solar installers can actually lay an
offset into a stick of EMT? Not many. Most are glorified stereo
installers, plugging and praying.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
William Miller<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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