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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Hi Nick,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Waddya mean "another supply side tap nightmare"? This
isn't the first?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>RE: "Void the listing..." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Let's be honest. I don't know about you or anyone else
on this list, but I'm pretty sure that e</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009>very single supply side connection
I've seen in wall-mounted meter/main combination service panels has voided the
listing on the thing. These were factory assembled and listed as
such. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Just because, "it's been done before", does not change
the fact that it's not what the panel manufacturer had in mind when the
thing originally left the factory. This applies to equipment with
conductors as well as busbars. If they had intended connections such as this,
they would have provided the means to do it and listed (no pun intended) the
approved devices on the label inside the cover. The label that is no longer
legible....</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>If an inspector plays the "all equipment must be listed
for the use" card, you have a couple options. Smaller PV system on a load side
connection comes to mind. Larger service panel comes to mind. Different
service configuration <EM>(i.e. separate meter socket)</EM>, comes to mind.
Paying for a NRTL to list the final product comes to mind, along with a few cuss
words. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Pissing up a rope trying to get the guy to back down
from his 100% defensible position is not jumping out there as a viable
option to me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>I'm not exactly sure what you hoped to gain by swapping
from TW to THHN from a code perspective.... I fully understand your service
entrance feeder table concept, but what do you gain, really? Other than the
fact that you will be violating the listing by tapping in that section anyway,
you can theoretically put up to 110A of PV on that conductor and stay with the
#1AWG TW (Table 310.16) under all the tap rules, etc. The utility is upstream of
your connection and the downstream (house) is protected by the 100A main
breaker. Unless it's an FPE, or Bulldog, or Zinsco... In those cases, Buddha
alone knows how many amps shall pass and sparks shall fly before the
breaker trips... </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>Are you putting in more than 100A of PV on a
utility service that is sized for 100A? If that's the deal, then a bigger
service is necessary. <EM>(Side Note: </EM></SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009><EM>IMHO, PV
output capacity greater than the customer's service needs shouldn't qualify
for Net Metering in any way shape or form.)</EM> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009>Just because the whole listing thing
around supply side connections is what it is, doesn't mean
that</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009> one could not SAFELY accomplish a supply side tap in
<U><STRONG>some</STRONG></U> of these boxes. <EM>(Note: Double negative =
positive, in case you missed it.)</EM> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009>Some, but certainly not all. The
problem is, "Safety" is subjective. What one person calls safe, I might
not, and vice versa. This is where standards come into place. Standards, such as
UL XXXX, are developed to define the conditions that constitute safety in
various products depending on their use. NRTLs judge whether a product meets
these conditions or not. If the product meets the conditions, the NRTL lists the
product to such and such a standard. The NEC defers to listing as the
be-all-end-all. As do building officials in many cases. Some use this as a club
to hide their own incompetence, no question. That being said,
we</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>I wouldn't normally bring all this up in this venue,
but from what I am seeing, the cat is out of the bag already... The horse has
left the barn... I suspect that, in most cases, supply side
connections will largely be a theoretical concept only in the very near
future. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>We must push equipment manufacturers to develop
products which facilitate safe, code-compliant interconnection at existing
services. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>I would contact a company like
Marwell <A
href="http://www.marwellcorp.com/">http://www.marwellcorp.com/</A> and
describe your supply side connection woes.... For small to modest size systems,
I think going right in behind the meter is best done outside the box.... Look
for an E/Z 1000-0 meter extender in the configuration you like from this
page <A
href="http://www.marwellcorp.com/online-catalog/5-1000">http://www.marwellcorp.com/online-catalog/5-1000</A>.
You can order it with KO up to 1". </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009>It's not standard a standard
option for this extender, but tell them you want </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=062260201-21112009>NC-400-L clips on
the load jaws. You will need to get them to buy off on it, but most
utilities will accept it, though they may want to put a lock on it.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>The trick is getting your neutral conductor routed
through it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009>It's a place to start...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=062260201-21112009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=062260201-21112009><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Matt Lafferty</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Nick
Vida<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 20, 2009 4:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> [RE-wrenches] "its a UL listed
assembly"<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>wow wrenches,<BR><BR>fun solar day for me. Another supply side tap
nightmare.<BR><BR>Have any of you ran into a situation where the AHJ will not
let you upgrade the feeders from the meter to the<BR> main breaker because
it "voids the UL listing"? In this case I had 1 AWG feeding a 100 amp main, but
it was<BR> type TW which is not on the feeder exception 310.16. In running
into the typical daftness on 690.64 I asked<BR> if I could replace the 1
AWG TW with Type THHN so the feeder chart would apply and there would be
150<BR> ampacity wires feeding the 100 amp main. No luck, all
frustration.<BR><BR>Any wrenches have any thoughts on this?<BR><BR>Nick
Vida<BR></DIV><!-- cg4.c4.mail.gq1.yahoo.com compressed/chunked Wed Nov 18 18:43:44 PST 2009 --></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>