<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">On L16s, I go by the tested cycle life, which for a Trojan is about 550 cycles to 80% DOD. Compared to a T105 which has 750 cycles, or a HUP at 2100 cycles, we quit pushing L16s a while ago. <div>Here in the mountains, we seem to see batteries in well designed off grid systems lasting roughly 100 cycles/ year. </div><div>So, T105 = 5 to7 yrs</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>L16 = 4 to 5 yrs</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>HUP = 18 to 20 yrs.</div><div>I've seen L16s go over 10, too, but not when horribly abused like the set I was discussing before. Those had lived in an off grid mode for 5 years, no generator, and were operated continuously at below 80% DOD. </div><div><br></div><div>L16s on a C40 seem to use exponentially more water as they age, starting about 3 to 4 years into their life.</div><div><br></div><div>As far as customer interaction with the MATE, we generally don't provide one. They're way too expensive and hard to understand, and the chances of them screwing up the programming are too great.</div><div>( I recall some vaporware that was supposed to allow us to pull up all the programming in Windows???)</div><div>We install just the cable, and coil it up so that when we come out, we can access the programming without having to remove all the cover plates.</div><div>Only customers that are comfortable with changing settings, etc. actually get a MATE. (1 out of 10) </div><div>The dual input issue hasn't been horrible, I have a system that we're doing now, in which we left the old SW system on the wall for generator charging, and as a backup backup.</div><div>We're still predominantly doing OUtback, we got excited about Magnum, but then found they have their own set of issues, and then after an unexplained inverter failure, we slowed way down on those.</div><div><br></div><div><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>R. Walters</div><div><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a></div><div>Solar Engineer</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
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<br><div><div>On Nov 6, 2009, at 1:37 AM, Nick Soleil wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; ">Yes Ray:<br> I have to back up what Todd is saying. If the batteries are well maintained, Trojan L-16s will frequently last 10-12 years , even with SW and DR inverters, and C-40s(I tell my customers 7-10.) I would expect that in a grid-tied application, with almost no added lifecycles, the batteries would make it for ten years plus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br> I have been witness to a couple of L-16 battery banks that died catastrophically at five years of age, but those were neglected batteries. One of the banks died when the customer added a skylight to the battery room??? and the bank cooked during a hot summer month. The water evaporated out of the battery, and the SW inverters automatically started the generator to charge them up. The remaining fluid was cooked out of the L-16s as the batteries were 'charged'. After the genny had run for a day, the customer called me and I arrived to find a set of batteries that was visibly melting down.<br> Do your customer's find the Mate controller to be very counter-intuitive and challenging to utilize. I do, even after installing 50+. I think I've given up on OB now, though. No Dual AC inputs?<br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </div>Nick Soleil<br>Project Manager<br>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC<br>PO Box 657<br>Petaluma, CA 94953<br>Cell: 707-321-2937<br>Office: 707-789-9537<br>Fax: 707-769-9037<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; "><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"<a href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wed, November 4, 2009 8:17:14 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] OB Battery Charging<br></font><br><font size="4" face="arial"><span style="font-family: monospace; ">The batteries are now 10 years old <br>(twice the normal life span I see with L16s)<br><br>Maybe it wasn't the inverter's charger. I typically see 10 to 12 years in my off grid systems.<br><br>Todd<br></span><br>On Wednesday, November 4, 2009 8:54am, "R Ray Walters" <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> said:<br><br>> I just wanted to comment on Outback's superb battery charging<br>> algorithm. (since I was ragging on the flexware last week)<br>> I have a customer still with his original Trojan L16s that were truly<br>> abused in off grid mode in the construction of his house. They<br>> regularly were run down to 22 vdc, and probably only reached full<br>> charge once a month for years. We finally switched the system over to<br>> grid tie about three years ago. The batteries are now 10 years old<br>> (twice the normal life span I see with L16s) and battery voltages are<br>> amazingly close, water use is very low, and corrosion of terminals was<br>> fairly low considering the age.<br>> I was really expecting to have to replace the batteries, but was<br>> pleasantly surprised to see how good a shape they were in.<br>> That's why we like Outback inverters, even if we're not so high on the<br>> Flexware.<br>> BTW this system also had a Bergey Wind turbine, and an Apollo charge<br>> controller, but the GVFX inverter basically regulates the battery<br>> voltage.<br>> I still haven't figured out just how the GVFX works, (i.e. when it<br>> goes thru a full charging sequence, whether it uses the renewable<br>> sources or the grid, etc)<br>> because the AC Kwh meter wiring configuration I used doesn't show AC<br>> input to the batteries.<br>> but what ever it does, it works.<br>> Anyone have a better meter configuration? We're using the recommended<br>> 5 jaw digital meter from Austin International, and the base is wired<br>> per Outback's white paper on the subject.<br>> It cancels energy readings that just pass thru to the loads and<br>> tabulates sell back, but it doesn't seem to register AC use from<br>> battery charging. (my system shows 0 Kwh after 2 years)<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Thanks,<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> R. Walters<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><br>> Solar Engineer<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Options & settings:<br><span>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><span>> List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> List rules & etiquette:<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Check out participant bios:<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></font></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>