<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Keith,<div><br></div><div>Sorry about #4, should have said " pumped storage just isn't practical for small systems.</div><div><br></div><div>So the long version is that to get away from batteries, you would need whats called an AC direct hydro.</div><div>This hydro would power the AC loads directly, no inverters, no batteries.</div><div>What gets tricky is that since the hydro has to power EVERYTHING including surge it needs to be pretty large for many of todays loads.</div><div>So 8 kw would be pretty small ( about a 4kw inverter system ) and 15kw+ not uncommon for an AC direct system. </div><div>Which means you need a lot of water/drop to get this kind of watts from your hydro.</div><div><br></div><div>In getting away from batteries, inverters etc its a very cost effective and reliable system, and really about the ultimate system. Typically these systems run for years, decades without problems, with a bit of maintenance of course.</div><div><br></div><div>Besides the turbine you need a controller system that will keep the voltage constant. These use SS controls with diversion loads to keep the voltage constant under all loads ( within the parameters of the system) so you don't blow things up when the compressor turns off or on for that matter.</div><div>One benefit of these dump loads is that you can make hot water for domestic and space heating, air conditioning, leave lights on, you name it.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope this makes sense,</div><div><br></div><div>jay</div><div><br></div><div>peltz power</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:10 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Jay<br><br>Ok....<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><br>How about the long version?<br><br>Can you also elucidate on # 4?<br><br>Regards<br><br>Keith<br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>jay peltz <<a href="mailto:jay@asis.com">jay@asis.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 24, 2009 3:11:41 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro<br></font><br>Hi Keith,<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I get this question a lot.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1. Best efficiency for a hydro from potential energy in to actual output watts( not including wire loss) is around 40-60% depending on the exact application, turbine etc.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2. Efficiencies of pumps, is around the same at best. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3. This won't replace the battery for off grid usage. Thats the short version, the long answer if needed.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">4. While hydro is magic if you've got it, pumped storage</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">5. So we've got some big loss's, 35% efficient at best and 15% at worst. IE batteries are way more efficient than pumped storage.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">jay</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">peltz Power</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Aug 24, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 127, 64); "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Hi</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Have any of you considered using PV to pump water to a holding area and releasing it and capturing the kinetic energy via a pelton wheel/hydro?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">If so, what do we think are the efficiencies and value of doing such a project are? Meaning, back of the napkin, PV is + - 77% efficient, minus "x" to pump the water to "x" elevation and the net result of the hydro = "____% efficient"</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">It would be using the reservoir as the battery.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">There is approximately 300' of elevation from the PV system and water source to the reservoir area.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">I recall about 15 years ago, I visited a member on this lists Vermont home and he had a pond at the top of his property, but i don't recall how the source got to the reservoir? Might have been naturally fed?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Anyway, the premise is, as grid access becomes more difficult to do, as the utility infrastructure gets saturated, what are our options for folks that want PV, but are limited in how much they are allowed to connect to the grid, without an interconnection study by a 3rd party to increase the comfort of the utility to have more non firm resources on their grid. We are seeing this happen here now and I was wondering if any of you have encountered this or are anticipating this in your areas?</span><br><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Any suggestions, calcs, recommendations, feedback would be appreciated.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Keith</span><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>