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I took boB's advice and talked to Magnum about the problem. Their take
on it? "Hmmm, beats me!" I might be paraphrasing, but that's the drift.
All in all, I'd say that the suggestions from the group are at least as
good as the one's from the manufacturer.<br>
<br>
Matt T<br>
<br>
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid00DD2D75-2812-4DEE-815C-ED7769E17B3E@starlightsolar.com"
type="cite">Don't forget, this is a Magnum inverter and Magnum has
issues. I have two customers with Magnum problems. One is a washer
that will work perfectly on a cheap import inverter; the other has a
Vizio TV that works fine on shore power and generator. Soooo...maybe
there are pumps and other items that are anti-Magnum.
<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Crutcher
<br>
Starlight Solar
<br>
(928) 941-1660
<br>
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:24 PM, boB Gudgel wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Chris Worcester wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Has he checked the torque on all the
battery connections?
<br>
<br>
Sincerely,
<br>
<br>
Chris Worcester
<br>
Solar Wind Works
<br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
<br>
Phone: 530-582-4503
<br>
Fax: 530-582-4603
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.solarwindworks.com">www.solarwindworks.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris@solarwindworks.com">chris@solarwindworks.com</a>
<br>
"Proven Energy Solutions"
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Also, Evidence of a bad battery connection (or bad inverter) should be
obvious if the house lights dim
<br>
when the pump tries to start.
<br>
<br>
boB
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----
<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Matt
<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:25 PM
<br>
To: RE-wrenches
<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
<br>
<br>
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
<br>
<br>
One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a
Magna
<br>
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it
up, it
<br>
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he
couldn't
<br>
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
<br>
<br>
The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the
pump.
<br>
He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
<br>
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think
not), a
<br>
motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being
<br>
somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not
after.
<br>
<br>
Matt T
<br>
<br>
<br>
---- boB Gudgel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com"><boB@midnitesolar.com></a> wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">boB Gudgel wrote:
<br>
<br>
>>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is
always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in
phase) power, or VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere
Reactive"). That will work in all cases.
<br>
<br>
<br>
OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said
Power Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent
power" as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that
calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you
don't want that !
<br>
<br>
Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the
phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an
article on PF
<br>
recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the
two HP magazines.
<br>
<br>
boB
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">R. Walters wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Power factor expresses the time
difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their
sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are "in time", (their
wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the
other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a
voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves,
and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive
loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming
up to speed can have horrible PF.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power
meters.
<br>
<br>
For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies
without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O- scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
<br>
<br>
For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of
1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same
AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
<br>
<br>
So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That will
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
<br>
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt
Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless
the PF = 1.0 in which
<br>
case both will measure the same.
<br>
<br>
Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is
the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive,
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase
in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90
degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the
voltage, then
<br>
the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor =
1.0
<br>
<br>
It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically
it. Feel free to add to this.
<br>
<br>
boB
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
power meters.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">There is much more to it, with
reactance, "real" and "imaginary" numbers?!, etc. but basically, we
wrenches need to know that everybody wants Power factor to be close
to 1.
<br>
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most
situations.
<br>
<br>
Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
<br>
<br>
R. Walters
<br>
Solarray.com
<br>
NABCEP # 04170442
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB
Gudgel wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Ron Young wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Ok, so all seem to be in
agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro?
:-|
<br>
<br>
I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
It was most likely just a trick question.
<br>
<br>
You're gonna fool them, though ! :)
<br>
<br>
<br>
boB
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I'll contact them and see where
this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will
make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the
difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the
actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I
came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power
Factor with reference to PV:
<br>
<br>
POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By:
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal
with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power
factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the
role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction
in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR
installations and the resultant savings.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf">http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf</a>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Ron
<br>
<br>
On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">There is no such thing as a
power factor for DC or for panels.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
............................................................................
<br>
......................
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Northern Arizona Wind & Sun
- Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
<br>
Solar Discussion Forum: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/">http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
............................................................................
<br>
......................
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> ----- Original Message -----
<br>
*From:* Ron Young <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:solareagle@solareagle.com"><mailto:solareagle@solareagle.com></a>
<br>
*To:* RE-wrenches <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
<br>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
<br>
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
<br>
<br>
Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
for
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The
utility is requesting it on a net
<br>
metering interconnection application. Ron Young
<br>
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a>
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.39/2275 - Release Date: 08/01/09 09:38:00
</pre>
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