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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Maybe they could go “off-grid”
with a cogeneration unit powered by biodiesel. That could make a lot of $
sense depending on their annual heating load and local kWh price. Our local
biodiesel plant sells it cheaper then propane for now. Rough math is 1/3<sup>rd</sup>
electricity, 1/3<sup>rd</sup> recoverable heat, and 1/3<sup>rd</sup> waste heat
that you can’t get back. You could still take the some/most of the lighting,
refrigeration and water pumping off grid with large but still standard set of
battery based inverters, wind and solar.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Have you pointed out that batteries aren’t
exactly environmentally friendly and reduce the efficiency of the system?
That might trigger them to battery less grid tie.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>FYI, HUP now has a 1990 AH battery. Of
course that’s still way too many stings to get to 19,000 AH (900+ kWh,
wow)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Speaking of big, high quality batteries; Special
thanks to Jamie Surrette for helping me out last week. I was able to successfully
weld a new terminal back on a Surrette 4v 1100 AH battery with his help.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 02, 2009 1:03
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">RE-wrenches</st1:PersonName>] How large is too large?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>We had a similar lead come up a year ago, although the lodge in this
case was 22 miles from mains power and 10K feet up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thank goodness we had contracted $3500 in design fees up front to
do all of the load projection and design research work. We determined that
the batteries were the limiting factor: at 48V, about 2,000 amp-hours, and two
or three strings max (depends on expected DOD), we couldn't provide a battery bank
large enough.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The only solution we arrived at was using <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Sunny</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Islands</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
in 3 phase, redundant generators, duplicate services, Sunny Boys on arrays, and
Windy Boys on two Provens to build an AC-coupled microgrid. That way we had
duplicate battery banks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>When we presented the general design approach to the owner's (common
household name, largest private landowner in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>)
representatives through the electrical engineer, with a preliminary
estimate around $700K, they decided to run the lodge on generators.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Allan
Sindelar <br>
<a href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>allan(at)positiveenergysolar.com</span></font></a> <br>
</span></font><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>NABCEP</span></font> <font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>C</span></font><font
size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>ertified</span></font>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>S</span></font><font
size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>olar PV</span></font>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I</span></font><font
size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>nstaller</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>Positive
Energy, Inc.</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3201
Calle Marie</span></font> <br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=2 face=g><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>Santa Fe</span></font></st1:City><font
size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'> <st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State>
<st1:PostalCode w:st="on">87507</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place> <br>
<font size=2 face=g><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:g'>505 424-1112</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Dickson</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hello Wrenches, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have a customer that has really likes
the thought of being off-grid and they have asked me to design a system for their
“lodge”. I have kicked and screamed to get them to consider a
grid-tied system using their existing grid service—to no avail. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>After doing a preliminary load analysis, I
have determined that it would take ~35kW of solar and a couple Bergey Excels
for it to work along with a 19,000Ah battery bank. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, how big is too big? If we were
to move forward on this, what would be the major obstacles/show stoppers
besides the price (as price is not an issue)?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What are some of the largest battery based
systems that you have installed or heard of?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Any input is welcome. . .besides being
told just to run away from this one. . .<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>REgards, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Mark Dickson</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Oasis Montana
Inc.</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'><a
href="http://www.oasismontana.com/" target="_blank"></a><a
href="http://www.oasismontana.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#497699"><span
style='color:#497699'>www.oasismontana.com</span></font></a></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font><font size=2
color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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