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Glenn,<br>
<br>
ISBN 978-0-8269-1287-9<br>
<br>
Available in several places now including Amazon.com....a wonderful
book!<br>
Wish this was around 'back in the day' when I was getting started....<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.four-winds-energy.com">www.four-winds-energy.com</a>
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
</pre>
<br>
<br>
Glenn Burt wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:001501c90fba$23ad1850$6b0748f0$@burt@glbcc.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Do you happen to have the ISBN number for that textbook?
Regards,
Glenn Burt
Technical Specialist
Renewable Power Systems, LLC
PO Box 967
Averill Park, NY 12018
V: 518-674-5808
C: 518-810-3174
F: 518-514-1175
E: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gburt@RPSPower.com">gburt@RPSPower.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RPSpower.com">www.RPSpower.com</a>
-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: dt renewables
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
hi ALL
I am the NABCEP certified installer that teaches the course. So I am the horses mouth. If you knew the whole story it might look different. Further we have no sweetheart deal with NABCEP, and are encouraging them to increase their standards. Following is part of the story.
To complete this course the following:
1) the student must be a practicing electrician, for at least 4 years. holding a Minnesota journeyman’s license and have a current OSHA 10 hour stamp.
(Note: NABCEP requested up to five times that the Employment records be sent, and they would not accept a letter from the Union on letter head if it was faxed or e-mailed, on just sent on photocopied letter head without a proof of validity of the records, this minutia alone cost me a great amount of money and many hours.
2) The student must complete 56 hours of classroom training. the school requires attendance, and missing a day of class or even 2 hours will require the retaking of the particular course. (for this reason the 56 hour class is broken into 3 each 16 hour classes and one 8 hour class, and if a student misses a single class he/she must only repeat a 16 hour session) These people are workers with lives, and this is my attempt to make this work course more palatable.
3) The school also requires the student to complete written tests during the sessions, to prove competency, and as an instructor I can require a student retake a 16 hour session before they move to the next session. All sessions must be taken in order, for example a student must take and complete solar basics before taking solar intermediate. \
3a) The book which we use is the ATP “Solar Systems” (ATP Press) 435 pages and I work to cover most of these pages in only 56 hours. Some of the materials are not appropriate for installer’s, however the balance of the book is covered in "solar for contractors"
4) After completion of these 56 hours, they are encouraged to take the NABCEP Certificate of Knowledge test. (However because it costs 70$ and NABCEP does not require this cert for qualifying for the installer test many do not take the test. (I think NABCEP should require training and COK. I also think 40 hours of training for cert test is ridiculous.)
5) Then after satisfactory completion the student is allowed to take the 64 hour installers course. I will not, nor will the school, accept anyone who has not at least 4 years experience as electrician, have OSHA stamp, completed the 56 hour COK course, to take the installer course!.
6) the 64 Hour installers course is a minimum of 64 hours (school based installations). (BTW: My two installers classes both ran 80 hours, with some students carrying over to complete their installs) During this class we indeed disassemble and reassemble a ground mount array, with each student completing a section of the array for their inverter and system based experience. EACH student must complete the following!!!
6a) Install one single phase DGI inverter complete witn setting into operation, and trouble shooting and inspection. (for trouble shooting I introduce a fault, usually a ground fault in the array but other faults are possible , the student must tell me where in the array the fault is by testing.)
6b) Install one three phase inverter (commercial) array. The student chooses either a 120-208 three phase, or 208 three phase, or 277-480 three-phase, or a battery based (only choice is 120/208) system. They wire and connect the inverters, or inverter, and set into operation, and trouble shoot problems that I introduce. These faults include offset neutral voltage, out of specification phase voltage, array grounding, high resistance in the line connections and others.
6c) Then the students working in teams of two must install a battery based system it might be a stand-alone, or grid interactive. (We have only three brands of battery based inverters at present, some 24 and 48 volt.) If the student team choses to install a battery based standalone system they must demonstrate auto gen start. I also introduce faults into these systems which the student must diagnose.
6d) The students then as team of 4 build class projects, these are usually hybrid system, or micro-grid (ac coupled inverters), or other unusual systems.
6e) Each student experiences installation hardware of top of pole mount and roof mount, and we are building as part of the small wind training facility additional solar installation space.
7) only after completing this 64 hour course are they allowed to participate in the final phase. This phase is in two parts, one, assist in an install lead by others, and two, lead in the install of a 1 kW or larger inverter based system. For the leader of the install, I make the contact with the customer, I do not sell the final design. The student, with me close by, but not always present works with the customer to design and describe the installation. The customers for the last round was high schools working on a state/utility grant of 5000 dollars for a 1 kW system, or homeowners with their budget. Some of the schools had additional budget, some did not. The completed student design is then submitted for my approval, and permitting where required is arranged. The lead student with the help of additional student performs the install, under my observation. The student does this under the warrantee of the contractor of record. Who insists
that I make finial approval of the installation. Then the student faces the utility inspector, the electrical inspector, and the building inspector.
Why is this approach necessary? In Minnesota up to July there are only, 185 installations in the last 4 years, the average install is just under 3kW. My students install in about 30 hrs/ kW on 1kW systems and faster on the larger couple of systems. If 600 kW were installed, this would be a max of 18,000 man-hours, to install the whole state 4 year solar base!!! At 2000 man-hours/ year, 9 people! could install the entire state 4 year solar electric base in one year. We are seeing an exponential growth in solar, and expect an explosion of solar installations, DO YOU WANT THESE DONE BY FIRST TIMERS? Many of the states installers are being done this way. I have been called to repair such systems.
It is indeed tough to get ahead of the solar game, NABCEP is hopefully providing standards and the local Union is trying to exceed. The local industry can not grow to meet the demand unless planning an participation and training is followed. The local union membership voted to add to their dues enough monies to build the solar training lab. This was $200,000 dollars. Further some solar companies Xantrex, PVPowered, Outback, Silent Power, SMA, Fronius, Apollo, Morningstar, Surrette Battery, Sharp, and MIdnight solar have gifted the lab with additional equipment.
I and the local union have supported NABCEP as a requirement for state refund, at many levels, I and the local Union hope this support will result in quality standards. There is no attempt on my part to circumvent the NABCEP standards, only to enhance the quality of solar installations.
BTW Most but not all of the students start the sequence in the fall and complete in the spring. They have completed typically 180 hours of guided, intense work to get ready for certification. How does this compare with Someone who swept the floor or installed hot tubs or solar water heaters, or built decks or just wired houses, and then was involved in two solar installs and is now qualified to test. It is very apparent the variety of experience starting in a classroom to a lab to the field has deck building or house wiring beat hands down. (There is no solar installer in the state that is anywhere near pure PV, and further some are doing their first two and only two installs to qualify.
To imply that NABCEP has given us special treatment is pure Baloney.. If you want your ears red you should be part of my (pleading?) with NABCEP for the equivalence of training on 4 systems to equal one field install.
Darryl
work.
--- On Fri, 9/5/08, Tump <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tump@hughes.net"><tump@hughes.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Tump <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tump@hughes.net"><tump@hughes.net></a>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
To: "RE-wrenches" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:20 PM
Good day fellow NABCEP installers. My brother in law ,who is
a member of
IBEW, was visiting from Minnesota, needless to say we have
some interesting
discussions, this one for example.
He said that he was taking a course, taught by a NABCEP
certified
installer, "to get the guys certified". We talked
about the course & I
asked,"When are you taking the test you don't have
the experience". His
reply was; September, & as for the hands on
experience, he told me they
have a generic grid tie system that they assemble &
unassembled a few times
that "met the hands on requirements". I asked
what about the time frame of
work?, to which he replied that " the instructor &
the IBEW were pressuring
NABCEP to wave this requirements!.
I am aware that there is a shortage of "Properly
Trained" installers but if
the above is true then once again. OUR NABCEP credentials
are being watered
downed to benefit a few!
NABCEP & the teacher (contractual obligations?) profit
by waving these
requirements, but the public & those of us who have
HONESTLY met the
requirements LOSE!
Where is the NABCEP representative on the board? Are you
involved during
these discussions?What is your response to this?
Are these board discussions involving the whole board?
Perhaps this another
one of the boards secret meetings that "aren't
secret"? Doesn't the board
have a responsibility to the folks who have become
certified, maintaining
the acme of standards in the installation field?
Is this a discussion that was slated for the annual
meeting? Hummm, the test
is in September & the annual meeting is in October.
Would someone "in the know" like to respond to
this?
We already discussed the lack of "transparency of the
NABCEP board" early
this year. I seem to remember being told "the Wrench
list was NOT the place
to have these discussions".
When we hear about this kind of thing, from outside the
NABCEP organization,
anyplace is a good place to not only question the board,
but also to discuss
it!
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Tump@hughes.net"><mailto:Tump@hughes.net></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tump@hughes.net">Tump@hughes.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.swnl.net/"><http://www.swnl.net/></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.SWNL.net">www.SWNL.net</a>
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer /
Installer"
_______________________________________________
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
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