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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't think either one of us is "striding away
from this issue". As Jeff pointed out, and I haven't seen included very
much in this discussion, it is about far more than surge loads and surge
responses, it is about time of operation. I don't care if it is a toaster
or a whole-house AC or a window unit the most important aspect, after
determining if the inverter can even handle the load, is how much time said unit
will operate and if the system is designed to even manage a unit (toaster or AC)
for the normal operating time without seriously degrading battery life and
health.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Starting surges and instantaneous loads are
important considerations but operating hours are equally important for good
system design. I remember years ago Richard Perez describing the AC unit
they installed in the Home Power offices and how important it was to know not
only load but how long the unit would operate in relation to system
sizing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And yes, I still think an AC of that size on a
system of that size is nutty from a practicality standpoint unless they want
their generator to run most of the time. Well reasoned guidance is
absolutely important, as you point out, but the comments made were made about
what was not being discussed in this particular case, and I still believe Jeff
is right to point that out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>T.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=peter.parrish@calsolareng.com
href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com">Peter Parrish</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">'RE-wrenches'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] offgrid system
question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">As the two of you stride away from this
issue with self-congratulatory back slaps and dismissive comments about nutty
clients, you might also find time to arm yourself with a modicum of facts
about current surges in motors and surge response of inverters. A 3.5 ton A/C
may be excessive, but is a 3/4 ton A/C, too? What about a swamp cooler, a
whole house fan or a 1 hp water pump? Each client (in my book) deserves well
reasoned guidance based on facts (regardless of how clients we need to provide
it to).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">BTW, I agree 100% that we need to preach
energy efficiency and heating with gas vs. electricity.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">- Peter Parrish</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter T. Parrish,
Ph.D., President<BR>California Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>820 Cynthia Ave.,
Los Angeles, CA 90065<BR>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax
323-258-8885<BR>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert.
031806-26<BR>peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Tom Elliot<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[RE-wrenches] offgrid system question</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank you Jeff, for asking the
obvious. I've been agog that no one seemed to think this was a nutty
situation for an off-grid home.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">T.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 2.7pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=jryago@netscape.com href="mailto:jryago@netscape.com">Jeff Yago</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</A>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:57 AM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[RE-wrenches] offgrid system question</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I may be out of line here, but
most of these comments have been related to making the right program
settings and startup surge current issues. I did not read any comments
that this client is nuts to try and run a 3.5 ton air conditioner from a
solar off-grid system, let alone a system with such a very small
capacity. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would be surprised if this
small existing solar array and batteries can keep up with the regular
loads like lights, kitchen appliances, refrigerators, and entertainment
equipment, let alone also running a central air conditioner.
. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would not just debate
the problems of surge current, I would like to know how this little solar
system is going to keep up with the constant load of approx. 4,000 watts for
the AC unit plus another 500 watts for the air handling unit which he did
not mention. With a constant drain of 4,500 watts, just how long do
you think this battery bank will last? For most locations,
during peak summer days a typical AC unit needs to run
constantly 12 to 16 hours per day.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would be interested in hearing
from others on this, but here in the humid and hot east it is not possible
to provide air conditioning for an off-grid home unless we are just cooling
one or two rooms with a low energy Sanyo type split system in the 1/2 to 3/4
ton range. Of course if you have enough solar modules and batteries
you could run anything, but can you afford it?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We do lots of off-grid systems
and the first thing we tell clients is to not even think about having air
conditioning, electric hot water heaters, or electric clothes dryers unless
they have a really big bag of money.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jeff
Yago</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Netscape. Just the Net You
Need.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No virus found in this incoming message.</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com </SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1624 - Release Date: 8/20/2008 7:11 PM</SPAN></FONT></PRE>
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face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">_______________________________________________<BR>List
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Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1624 - Release Date: 8/20/2008 7:11 PM
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<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>List sponsored by
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