[RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power

Wed Oct 29 13:00:12 PDT 2025

This question may have gotten buried earlier. But do you know when looking
for inadvertent neutral to ground connections whether you only need to look
at the backed up loads, or do you need to look at all the loads in the
house?

Thanks,
Dave

On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:29 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jay
>
> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have
> increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from
> bad wiring practices.
> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with
> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need
> a #2AWG wire on the output".
> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or
> underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the
> inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high
> resistance on the AC side.
>
> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to
> almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is
> another issue altogether, that has been talked about.
>
> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used
> to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was
> full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and
> the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even
> harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues.
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> HI William
>>
>> This is for both on and off grid correct?
>> jay
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave
>>
>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length.
>> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so
>> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance
>> issues, or circle issues.
>>
>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power
>> demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power
>> is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the
>> flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into
>> account the  different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean
>> install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the
>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting
>> the inverter AC runs  together.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the
>>> technical perspective.
>>>
>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are
>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to
>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things
>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to
>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the
>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a
>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to
>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same
>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much.
>>>
>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in
>>> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G
>>> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link
>>> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as
>>> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the
>>> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of
>>> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the
>>> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the
>>> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very
>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%.
>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G
>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the
>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals
>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side?
>>>
>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression
>>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power
>>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits
>>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that
>>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to
>>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is
>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid
>>> power" in the Power Control settings.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All
>>>>
>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated
>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise
>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may
>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing
>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link,
>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible.
>>>>
>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues:
>>>>
>>>>    1.
>>>>
>>>>    Improper system design
>>>>    2.
>>>>
>>>>    Wiring and installation mistakes
>>>>
>>>> Off-Grid Example
>>>>
>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is
>>>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap).
>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the
>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the
>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter
>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down
>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large
>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array.
>>>> Grid-Tie Example
>>>>
>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring
>>>> mistakes, some common examples are:
>>>>
>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds
>>>>
>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets
>>>>
>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters
>>>>  must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any
>>>> mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is
>>>> not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the
>>>> DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for
>>>> protection.
>>>>
>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a
>>>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper
>>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and
>>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation.
>>>>
>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a
>>>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection
>>>> limitations.
>>>>
>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and
>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed)
>>>> to full integration with the grid.  Because you know we all want the
>>>> utility to have full control over our systems!
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent
>>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid
>>>>> system with no generator.
>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve
>>>>> measured.
>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a
>>>>> potential issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe someone can explain?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus
>>>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting
>>>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a
>>>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear
>>>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main
>>>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still
>>>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code
>>>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of
>>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is
>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be
>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to
>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the
>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am
>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain
>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram
>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on
>>>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear
>>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it
>>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved
>>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises.
>>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond
>>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It
>>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to
>>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in
>>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold:
>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a
>>>>> supply side connection?
>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had
>>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G
>>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar
>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this
>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing
>>>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect
>>>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N
>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should
>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be
>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV
>>>>>> service disconnect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter
>>>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where
>>>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This
>>>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble
>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The
>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the
>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as
>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I
>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel,
>>>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think more information is needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches <
>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan
>>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion
>>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service.
>>>>>>>  It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my
>>>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where
>>>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal
>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral
>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC
>>>>>>> requirement
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side
>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar
>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up
>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link
>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to
>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I
>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond
>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to
>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system
>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have
>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have
>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] <https://www.sungineersolar.com/>
>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar
>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his
>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1653+Slaterville+Rd.+%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0Ithaca,+NY+14850?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> NY 14850
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>>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370
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