[RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02
William Miller
william at millersolar.com
Fri Dec 6 18:30:50 PST 2024
Pieter:
Interesting. One would think the Coast Guard would have access to the
space lasers. These should easily melt off any snow accumulation.
William Miller
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985
*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, December 6, 2024 11:56 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* pieter offgridenterprises.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02
Howie, We have never tried active ice melting systems, but did have a
client ( USCG) try various methods and ultimately gave up for a variety of
reasons. Based on that hearsay evidence I would advise against attempting
any sort of active Ice melting system. For what it is worth wind farm
operators used to use Mop and Glo on turbine rotors to help shed Ice, dirt,
and insect contamination and it resulted in noticeable improvement. I have
not heard of anybody trying that on Solar, but it would be an easy cheap
experiment to treat one or two panels in an array to get a comparison.
Pieter Huebner
Project Manager
Off Grid Enterprises
*From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> *On Behalf
Of *Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, December 6, 2024 1:30 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Howie Michaelson <Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02
I always love how what I imagine to be a simple question often sparks a
much wider, interesting conversation on this list.
In this instance, I am dealing with an off- grid client in a colder,
snowier, cloudier section of Vermont, but not an extreme environment. The
panels are mounted on a fixed, 35 degree rack.
The client is asking if putting heat pans behind the panels would be ok and
useful for dealing with sticky snow/ice scenarios. Having never looked
into the option, assuming it was probably a bad idea, I told him as much.
But, of course he found an internet site that advertises such things
specifically for solar panels.
I was fairly skeptical, but since I really had never truly vetted the idea,
I figured I would asked all you esteemed colleagues if anyone had any
direct experience or knowledge of such things.
So that is what I'm wondering about. Has anyone here had any direct,
indirect or hearsay knowledge about devices for melting some amount of snow
or ice build up off of panels? I'm not thinking this would be the primary
method of clearing them, only a way to help get a sticky layer to release.
I imagine it would be controlled by a simple on/off switch that the owner
deals with as he deemed necessary.
I am happy to hear everyone's stories about design, methodology, or
recommendations for dealing with snow, since this is an ongoing concern in
this part of the world (and hopefully will continue to be), but at the
moment I am most interested to get feedback about methods of melting snow.
Thanks as always,
Howie
Sun Catcher
On Fri, Dec 6, 2024, 1:52 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow
country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by
others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02:
Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage
incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to
slide at less than 32 deg.
Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the array
with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom edge or
on a section of the array.
Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for
a mountain install I would increase this to higher.
I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door
shed roof) below the array?
I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more
contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance).
If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it
flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for
bolts that stick up close to the back sheet.
Happy Hollar Daze all!
_________________________________________________________
Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS!
C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com
W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com
*“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”*
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jay pozner via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc: jay pozner <jay at outpostreconcepts.com>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:39:42 +0000
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid
I have gone around this many times on this one. It's interesting to hear
all the perspectives of peers whom I greatly respect. In revisiting this I
think context is really important. There are so many factors that can add
up to "tip" the scales to favor this idea that one professional might or
might not consider. I have seen a fair amount of destruction of PV from
snow, and of course the disruption in PV performance which could then of
course cascade to battery destruction. In trying to avoid the heat idea,
I have made a secondary (small) array mounted vertically on a wall of a
cabin to simply maintain a trickle charge of the batteries of the system
during winter months when the cabin isn't being used, in efforts to keep
the lead acid batteries topped off. Of course it's not perfect if the snow
water content is high, and there is wind, but in an inter-mountain (dry)
snowpack it seems to perform well.
One idea that I am tilting towards more and more in these unique
circumstances is to power the heat source (heat tape, etc) with the
generator circuit. Of course there needs to be a reasonable sized
generator on site, but for most of my stand alone situations this is more
rule than exception. We can get fancy with a timer (to keep track of
daylight hours) and a photosensor to automatically determine if the array
is substantially covered, but truthfully I bet a simple switch used in
these situations actuated by the system owner might suffice...
Jay Pozner
(970) 209-0024
On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 9:27 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially
with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of
the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above
the ground.
Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure the
foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But
shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get
ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is
the only thing that works.
There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing
modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some
kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not
sure where that went.
Todd
On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
Todd,
In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just
logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general,
if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long.
However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it
doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week
or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if
there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might
be a decent option in some cases.
Howie
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to
only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow
slides off and all is fine.
Todd
On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/
I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they
are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several
of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed
rain and snow.
By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application.
*Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar <kirkh at vermont.solar>*
*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
802.559.1225
On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels
(ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods
of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it
would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid.
I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them
up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be
worth trying.
Thanks,
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
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