[RE-wrenches] RE Module snail trails

Jon Dixon jon at dixonpowersystems.com
Mon Oct 28 12:30:07 PDT 2024 


Thomas,
The SMA inverters do have the SMA combiners you mentioned(see attached 
photo). As I said we have only done a walk through but we did check the 
string VOC at one of the combiners. With all fuses open string 1 +/- = 
411 and the other string were the same. But String 1 + to string 5 - 
also reads 411. It did not matter what combination you tried they all 
read 411
Just one more thing that needs to be diagnosed if they decide to move 
forward.

Thanks

Jonathan Dixon
Dixon Power Systems
3250 N 20th St Ste 1
Lincoln, NE 68521
402-467-3240
jon at dixonpowersystems.com


> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:54:41 +0000
> From: "Thomas Hall" <thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com>
> To: "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>,
> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Cc: Jon Dixon <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
> Message-ID:
> <CO6PR12MB5489D84764D13C3A9EC66AC9C04E2 at CO6PR12MB5489.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> ?
> Hello Jon.
> Another thought??Was the site using the SMA combiner boxes with the 3 
> SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10?
> We have had ground faults occur there internally. If it has a green 
> test button inside the combiner box unit (polarity tester) ?. replace 
> the combiner with a different manufactures equipment.
> I believe the model is called SMA 1000-US-11 String Combiner w/ 
> Disconnect.
>
> Thomas Hall
> Solar Specialty Group INC C-33998
> dba Specialty Group Electric
> 808-854-9539<tel:808-854-9539>
> thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com<mailto:thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com>
> www.solarspecialtygroup.com<http://www.solarspecialtygroup.com>
> Certified Thermographer
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ? 031310-92
>
>
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> on 
> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 12:04?PM
> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Cc: Jon Dixon <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
> Thanks Bryan,
>
> I do not know the PV connector types for the modules or extension cables
> we have not started working on it. I need to put a plan together for the
> customer first.
> Good to know about the Amphenol H4 issues.
>
> Thank You
>
> Jonathan Dixon
> Dixon Power Systems
> 3250 N 20th St Ste 1
> Lincoln, NE 68521
> 402-467-3240
> jon at dixonpowersystems.com
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000
>> From: Bryan Norkunas <bryan at pv-cables.com>
>> To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org"
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, "jon at dixonpowersystems.com"
>> <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
>> Message-ID:
>> <DM6PR06MB509799A96435CE8318649E11E24D2 at DM6PR06MB5097.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they 
>> used for extension cables?
>>
>> Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the 
>> plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bryan Norkunas
>>
>> PV-Cables Inc.
>>
>> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D
>>
>> Ferndale CA 95536
>>
>> (707) 923-3000 office
>>
>> www.pv-cables.com<http://www.pv-cables.com/>
>>
>> [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953]
>>
>>
>>
>> [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if 
>> necessary.
>>
>>
>>
>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of 
>> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or 
>> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
>> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
>> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all 
>> copies of the original message.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> on 
>> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM
>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Cc: Jon Dixon <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting 
>> of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They 
>> are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been 
>> going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year 
>> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes 
>> back to life.
>>
>> They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules 
>> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR 
>> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when 
>> the utility took the IR pictures.
>>
>> Causes for snail trails that I found:
>>
>> * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver 
>> contacts
>> * The degradation extent of the EVA material
>> * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material
>>
>> I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro 
>> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc 
>> faults.
>>
>> Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also?
>>
>>
>> Thanks Jon
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Dixon
>> Dixon Power Systems
>> 3250 N 20th St Ste 1
>> Lincoln, NE 68521
>> 402-467-3240
>> jon at dixonpowersystems.com<mailto:jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000
>> From: Bryan Norkunas <bryan at pv-cables.com>
>> To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org"
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, "jon at dixonpowersystems.com"
>> <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
>> Message-ID:
>> <DM6PR06MB50977334C1AA938F24F80930E24D2 at DM6PR06MB5097.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole 
>> in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bryan Norkunas
>>
>> PV-Cables Inc.
>>
>> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D
>>
>> Ferndale CA 95536
>>
>> (707) 923-3000 office
>>
>> www.pv-cables.com<http://www.pv-cables.com/>
>>
>> [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7]
>>
>>
>>
>> [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if 
>> necessary.
>>
>>
>>
>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of 
>> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or 
>> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
>> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
>> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all 
>> copies of the original message.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> on 
>> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM
>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Cc: Jon Dixon <jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting 
>> of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They 
>> are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been 
>> going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year 
>> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes 
>> back to life.
>>
>> They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules 
>> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR 
>> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when 
>> the utility took the IR pictures.
>>
>> Causes for snail trails that I found:
>>
>> * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver 
>> contacts
>> * The degradation extent of the EVA material
>> * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material
>>
>> I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro 
>> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc 
>> faults.
>>
>> Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also?
>>
>>
>> Thanks Jon
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Dixon
>> Dixon Power Systems
>> 3250 N 20th St Ste 1
>> Lincoln, NE 68521
>> 402-467-3240
>> jon at dixonpowersystems.com<mailto:jon at dixonpowersystems.com>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
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>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 319
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:10:29 +0000
> From: Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolarjeremy at msn.com>
> To: "william at millersolar.com" <william at millersolar.com>, RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing
> Off Grid Home
> Message-ID:
> <MW4PR01MB61153DFDA1C9E484DFFB8540CB4E2 at MW4PR01MB6115.prod.exchangelabs.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input 
> could be either grid or generator.
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
>
> On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41?AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Jeremy:
>
> Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem 
> described?
>
> William Miller
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] 
> On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off 
> Grid Home
>
> Wrenches,
> We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the 
> system hooked up to the utility.
> In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell 
> and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but 
> it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is 
> brought in as the AC source.
> We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' 
> AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( 
> if the grid fails), automatically.
>
> The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be 
> programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not 
> been able to get this accomplished.
>
> When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the 
> inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the 
> AC power to charge the batteries.
> The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the 
> input mode to GEN from GRID.
> This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make 
> the button push, even though the generator will be started 
> automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did 
> before.
>
> With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly 
> program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project?
> Equipment onsite:
> Single VFXR3648 inverter
> Two FM60 CCs
> Hub4
> MATE3S
> ATS with Dual Relays 50A
> L.A. Battery bank
>
> Here's how we would like it to work:
> Utility power ON:
> Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb 
> cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure.
> Utility Outage:
> ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed.
> Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid.
> If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will 
> use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes 
> back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no 
> connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery 
> bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage.
> Contact me off list if necessary
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> All Solar Inc.
> Penrose, CO
> 719-276-4954
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:25:25 +0000
> From: "chriswatsww at outlook.com" <chriswatsww at outlook.com>
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>,
> "william at millersolar.com" <william at millersolar.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing
> Off Grid Home
> Message-ID:
> <BN7PR17MB208168D3BB4F27FA807F85DDAE4E2 at BN7PR17MB2081.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> We have a client with 4 of the VFXR3648's in the same situation, GTBB 
> and you've described our solution perfectly although we installed a 
> manual transfer switch instead of the ATS, so if someone has figured 
> out a better solution we'd like to know what it is, thanks.
>
>
>
> Chris Worcester
> chriswatsww at outlook.com
> 530-448-9692
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: 10/24/24 11:11 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: william at millersolar.com, RE-wrenches 
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolarjeremy at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing 
> Off Grid Home
>
> We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input 
> could be either grid or generator.
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
>
> On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41?AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Jeremy:
>
> Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem 
> described?
>
> William Miller
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] 
> On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off 
> Grid Home
>
> Wrenches,
> We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the 
> system hooked up to the utility.
> In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell 
> and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but 
> it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is 
> brought in as the AC source.
> We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' 
> AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( 
> if the grid fails), automatically.
>
> The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be 
> programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not 
> been able to get this accomplished.
>
> When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the 
> inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the 
> AC power to charge the batteries.
> The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the 
> input mode to GEN from GRID.
> This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make 
> the button push, even though the generator will be started 
> automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did 
> before.
>
> With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly 
> program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project?
> Equipment onsite:
> Single VFXR3648 inverter
> Two FM60 CCs
> Hub4
> MATE3S
> ATS with Dual Relays 50A
> L.A. Battery bank
>
> Here's how we would like it to work:
> Utility power ON:
> Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb 
> cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure.
> Utility Outage:
> ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed.
> Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid.
> If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will 
> use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes 
> back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no 
> connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery 
> bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage.
> Contact me off list if necessary
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> All Solar Inc.
> Penrose, CO
> 719-276-4954
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> the other:
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>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 321
> ********************************************
>
>
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