[RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail

Tue Oct 15 05:07:24 PDT 2024

I like the idea of an ATS, but the customer would need to choose (in this
case) whether they want the house to go dark or to burn through 2000
gallons of propane if left unattended. When you have to barge out a propane
truck to refill, the economics change.

You would not even need an ATS if the Sol-Ark had an alarm relay. If it
did, you could trigger a 2-wire start upon an alarm condition and the
generator would pass through power to the loads. I don't think that exists,
however.

If you go the ATS route, I suppose you could have a cell modem on the
generator control as long as it is powered by the generator battery. That
way, you could optionally turn the generator off remotely if it were to be
automatically started.

Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 2:09 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William,
> This is exactly the approach I've used in the off grid aio install I just
> completed, specifically for reliability in the event of a system failure
> with no one present.  It works perfectly. Since there is no Bullitt in
> bypass switch, this is a standard item in all my battery based systems,
> whether on or off grid, now. I let my client decide whether they want to
> spring for the automatic transfer switch or stick with a less expensive
> manual transfer.  But one or the other is standard or else the backed up
> loads become captive to a system failure.
> Howie
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, 1:08 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the follow-up.  Two thoughts:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   I agree that a PV problem should not cause a system shutdown.  I
>> seem to recall Sol-Arc said they can’t do anything to correct the issue due
>> to listing/testing issues.  This alone would prevent me from choosing
>> Sol-Arc.  There is a lot of design history that goes against the all-in-one
>> approach.  For example, I remember as a teenager I got interested in stereo
>> equipment.  The logic was developing that rather than having a console
>> stereo, separate components offered more flexibility and reliability:  More
>> flexible because you weren’t stuck with a given collection of components
>> and more reliable because if one component failed, you had less to repair
>> or replace.  The same logic also applies to the one big inverter versus
>> several small inverters discussion.
>>
>> 2.   You mentioned you had bypass capabilities but no person to activate
>> it.  I’ve had this idea for a while:  If one has a generator as part of a
>> battery/inverter system, and reliability is critical--why not add an
>> Automatic Transfer switch right before the loads with the inverter as the
>> normal input and the generator as the emergency input?  The generator still
>> feeds the inverter system for normal operation, but if the inverter system
>> errors out, the ATS can start the generator and activate the bypass-- all
>> unattended.
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2024 8:19 PM
>> *To:* Maverick Brown
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail
>>
>>
>>
>> Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4
>> connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris
>> tap that got wet (long story, our fault).
>>
>>
>>
>> These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the
>> hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused
>> faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two
>> inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems
>> unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master,
>> either.
>>
>>
>>
>> One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total
>> system failure to operate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one
>> string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely
>> worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched
>> at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a
>> wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules.
>> There were tropical force winds there at the time.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown <
>> maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> Which fault are you getting?
>>
>>
>>
>> This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array.
>>
>>
>>
>> After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass.
>> After replacing the mods, all is well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>>
>> Maverick
>>
>>
>>
>> Maverick Brown
>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
>>  • Solar Commander Remote Power
>>  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
>> maverick at mavericksolar.com
>> 512-460-9825
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were
>> able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will
>> dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found
>> that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults
>> started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so
>> long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and
>> finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been  during the
>> early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the
>> issue over the top.
>>
>>
>>
>> Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with
>> voltages out of the expected range for the last week.
>>
>>
>>
>> All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each
>> string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string
>> operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above
>> the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter
>> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating
>> consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter
>> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected
>> range.
>>
>>
>>
>> Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These
>> show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the
>> inverter faults occurred.
>>
>>
>>
>> Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be
>> pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the
>> fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from
>> the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter
>> "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached
>> full battery yet.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I
>> actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based
>> on battery voltage, which was near full anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I
>> discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with
>> signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge
>> parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course –
>> the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge
>> parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the
>> battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The
>> battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging
>> to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you
>> need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the
>> only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to
>> the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage
>> below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to
>> the desired 51V.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history
>> remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am
>> sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters
>> today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and
>> through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see
>> what caused the fault(s). I will report back.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Aloha All,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I
>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was
>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to
>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on
>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to
>> prevent this from happening?
>>
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>>
>>
>> Lou Russo
>>
>> Owner
>>
>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com
>>
>> Office - 808 345 6762
>>
>> Spree Solar Systems LLC
>>
>> CT-34322
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage,
>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage
>> to the array.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a
>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid
>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it
>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite
>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark
>> system...
>>
>>
>>
>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per
>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during
>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error,
>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power
>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because
>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is
>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least
>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to
>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn
>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes
>> all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a
>> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault,
>> shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input
>> to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from
>> the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault
>> that could be programmatically isolated and ignored?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If
>> the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just
>> take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this
>> how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all
>> paralleled units' AC output? Not good.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle
>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one,
>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running
>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the
>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the
>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing
>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>>
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