[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Thu Apr 25 10:33:59 PDT 2024
Hi Michael;
I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming along
24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers. The old school off
grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, and were not
going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves.
Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I have a
new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips below 100 vac,
every time any larger load goes on (well pump, garbage disposal, fridge,
coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK battery monitors under warranty so
far. Apparently you can NOT disconnect or connect the BMK with its built
in 4 pin *connector*, or it will smoke the unit. That is a new problem,
they used to be robust. I have many older Magnum systems that are
great. Magnum quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by
Sensata.
If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being
reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago. Now it looks
like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years before
retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize reliability.
Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its still not ready for
prime time, either. I have an installer buddy that is having all sorts
of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and the installation isn't even
complete. He's already had to dark start them several times, and now
they won't even stay operational for more than a few minutes. The
cheapo BMS lears its ugly head once again. All we're doing lately is
fixing stuff less than 5 years old.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a
> suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most
> reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back
> from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest"
> wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum
> along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the
> power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same
> (12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
> shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or
> AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10.
> With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to
> bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has
> been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a
> few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches
> with Lithium.
>
> Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property
> with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the
> City, that's an entirely different conversation.
>
> My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live
> Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a
> year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device
> charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water)
> on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC
> loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a
> loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to
> reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in
> 15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a
> piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can
> charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery
> from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation
> is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could
> troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :)
>
> Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed
> and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky
> dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are
> either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and
> the latter have had their share of issues.
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC
> distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so
> to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work
> fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers
> instead in PV combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are
> fine, but I don't know of any standard distribution box for them.
>
> Brad Bassett
> Application Engineer retired
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We
> have a couple of barrier islands around here where people have
> set up what amounts to little fish camps that are used
> infrequently. The islands are also home to a few
> full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows
> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range
> from places that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars
> decades ago all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips
> of sand where very wealthy people like to look out over Naples
> beach a couple times of year from their off-grid mansions.
> It's pretty interesting.
>
> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a
> year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There
> is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like this. In this
> case, I feel I can get creative to meet the very limited 12V
> and 120V needs while providing a reliable and long-lasting
> solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want
> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting
> by with 4 x 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank
> and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with
> the performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is
> installed in a safe and professional manner.
>
> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by
> a Square D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The
> power production and delivery system is a total kludge that I
> feel I can fix without too much risk.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> How about just buy an RV?
> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the
> experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor.
> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies,
> people in vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went
> bad,
> and you get the picture.
> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and
> your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes and the
> lack can of it
> can be a warning.
> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what
> gets my accountant telling me if you do not charge enough,
> no one will listen to your advice.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
> don't"
> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>> Just using the converter works fine. They are
>> considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply.
>> I am currently running that way now with the battery
>> cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the
>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy
>> when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a
>> cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it
>> won't start).
>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via
>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery
>> with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V
>> -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V
>> battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC
>> loads directly with a converter? If I just have
>> lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be
>> pretty minimal.
>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like
>> to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible.
>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making
>> opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off
>> boredom from the daily grind.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via
>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason,
>> I have a customer with the same situation
>> except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He
>> has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with
>> a very fancy custom control board
>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.
>> We are adding a lot more solar and I was
>> considering a dual battery system but the owner
>> didn't like that idea. We are going with and
>> Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for
>> my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and
>> will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over
>> 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place
>> of the 12V inverter. He complained that the
>> existing inverter would not handle all his
>> current AC loads very well. My own house is fully
>> wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper
>> not being used) and I have been considering
>> getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by
>> DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary
>> charging method with some of my large stash of
>> older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40
>> charge controller to recreate my original system
>> just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost
>> and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right
>> now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery
>> (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old
>> battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC
>> side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or
>> through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller
>> non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these
>> challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make
>> money.!!
>> John Blittersdorf
>> offgridvermont.com <http://offgridvermont.com>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski
>> via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is
>> willing to live with any negative
>> consequences. That said, I want to offer him
>> something as simple and bulletproof as
>> possible. I am walking into this with eyes
>> wide open, for sure.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar
>> Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor
>> EC13013208
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini
>> Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not being helpful but I walk away from
>> these. It will come back to you.
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where
>> powerlines don't"
>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski
>> via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> I have an off-grid client who is
>> working on replacing old equipment at
>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt
>> distribution in the house for
>> lighting, fans, and a 12 volt
>> refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC
>> loads that run through a separate
>> distribution panel where the only
>> source is a 2000 Watt Honda
>> generator. There is no inverter
>> present. The batteries are charged
>> through a Trace C40.
>> He currently has a few ancient solar
>> panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade.
>> I can easily supply enough PV power
>> for what he needs. He currently has a
>> 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>> he was happy with when the batteries
>> operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>> would probably future-proof him with
>> a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>> For convenience, obviously it would
>> be nice to have an inverter to
>> eliminate or reduce the generator
>> requirement. But he seems committed
>> to keeping his 12 volt distribution
>> because it would be costly to replace
>> fixtures. I think he would consider
>> replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
>> he has an inverter.
>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt
>> direct from a battery plus connecting
>> an inverter to that same battery. It
>> is going to be hard to measure and
>> monitor things.
>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt
>> battery with a single phase 120 volt
>> inverter, getting him to change to a
>> 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
>> converter to give him somewhere in
>> the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for
>> his existing DC lighting and fan
>> loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I
>> stick with a 12 volt battery system?
>> He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure
>> pump which might be an issue for the
>> converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit
>> worried about the efficiency loss and
>> capacity of DC converters and not
>> sure how to size it.
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
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> --
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
> Morningstar Electric Inc
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> CSLB 1116835
>
> mjmorningstar at gmail.com
>
>
>
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