[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Wed Feb 7 21:17:05 PST 2024
We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to
accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support
has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago,
after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low
voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the
customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he
noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after
consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a
small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a
max of 58 v. By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept
even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the
batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage
(51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18
v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.
Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics
failed = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage
differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.
If the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper
programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off
grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending
their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.
How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu X'/ snafu
on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration
guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter
with their batteries.
So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would
have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.
That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying
they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be
seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3
weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to
reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen
again in a couple of years?
In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process,
or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought
I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead
acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's
2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance
are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty
of warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing
weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating do it
yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either.
*Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks
that don't rely on it, like GTB.
At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh?
We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under
the guise that this was NOT a /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.
Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being
wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries
don't start failing on my watch.
I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a
chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis",
and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. <rant off>
Sincerely,
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>
> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>
> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
>> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of
>> course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they
>> do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Pals:
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>
>>
>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>
>>
>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve
>> regulated lead-acid batteries.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
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