[RE-wrenches] Outback inverter generator question

Sun Aug 13 14:17:10 PDT 2017

Hi Ron,

An off list question posed to me asked how the non PFC charger could impact the results I described. 
I dont actually have a good answer for that. I simply see the bad results from the interaction of the Honda AVR and the VFX charger and the normal charging results of the MS2812 with the same Honda an hour later.

It was suggested that the PFC function alone would not be the issue but more likely the AVR.
No argument there. Although the gen output voltage would rise when charging when first looking into the problem.
The AVR was replaced that time. Normal function returned for several months then the described malfunction came to a head. Honda AVR topology vs FX charger topology would be my first though not proven conclusion.

Here is the latest comments from the list member who may have been considering my ego by asking me off list.

Is it possible the inverter was part of the problem, sure.  But replacing it with a magnum wasn’t the fix, the new inverter was.
Why was it the problem, harder to know.  Things do break, and which caused which we’ll never know.  Did the inverter have issues which caused the AVR to fail or did the AVR cause the inverter to be damaged?  But I don’t believe the issue of not having a PF corrected charger is an issue.  
Way too many OB in the field with no issues for that.

Yes the magnum has a PF corrected charger which puts less load on the generator, but thats all.  

So to re-summerize my improved conclusion: take pains to observe AC voltages in all three modes. Gen direct to loads if possible, inverter output only, then AC output while charging. Look to Honda AVR unit as possible cause
Thanks to Jay for not letting questionable conclusions go unquestioned.

Wallace Stahle
Future Electric Energy Co
PO Box 236
Willits, CA 95490
707-459-0474
Lic.#C10-762093
future at pacific.net

> On Aug 13, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Ron Young <solareagle at solareagle.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Wallace, the thing is, the VFX3524 is not a cheap inverter and should perform well with a generator. However with the customer reporting his concerns about high heat in the inverter and now these problems I’m not sure where to pin the problem. I’ll see if he will check the inverter and gen. voltage output. 
> 
> Ron Young
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Wallace Stahle <wstahle at pacific.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I would look at the generator output voltage with charger in standby. 
>> Oops no mate = no control. Find a way to power loads directly and monitor gen voltage. With true RMS meter.
>> Check inverter output voltage alone. Then check AC voltage while trying to charge. 
>> 
>> I would suggest the AVR (auto voltage regulator) on the generator is drifting to a higher voltage, and/or the non power factor corrected charger in the FX is having a rather negative effect on the generator output WHILE charging. The error light reflects out of spec AC input I surmisre
>> 
>> A few years ago  a three year old VFX2812 began to misbehave on a system with Honda EM model gen. After observing high gen voltage, up to 134 v AC the AVR was replaced, Some improvement resulted. Not long after, the customer reported fried surge protecter plug strips and continuing light flickering beyond the usual variations.
>> I observed rapid voltage changes while charging, strange noise from the inverter and unacceptable down stream effects while charging.
>> I installed a Magnum  MS2812 in its place and all the ill effects were resolved. 
>> 
>> I will only consider a PFC charger since then. Budget not the only value to consider. Or rather pay now or pay later.
>> The customer absorbed the fried plug strips and some misc. equipment.  I absorbed the new Magnum  cost (and suspect VFX2812) and the lesson on interactions between equipment. Some things dont play well with other things.
>> 
>> Wallace Stahle
>> Future Electric Energy Co
>> PO Box 236
>> Willits, CA 95490
>> 707-459-0474
>> Lic.#C10-762093
>> future at pacific.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Ron Young <solareagle at solareagle.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Have a client where I recently installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter in June. He’s using a Honda generator and has recently started having issues. He has been complaining that the inverter seems to be running hot but I believe this is because he doesn’t have good ventilation around it. He is probably also running high on the loads. He doesn’t have a Mate so can’t identify the error. He is in a remote location and I am currently unable to travel due to fire restrictions in my area (major BC wildfires).
>>> 
>>> Here is his recent email:
>>> -Seems the inverter is recognizing the power in as an issue, and throwing an error.
>>> -My existing 5000 Honda generator has been online with the unit since you installed it. 
>>> -The last few days, when there is very little load, or the unit goes to float, the generator goes into a high rpm.
>>> -My existing 5000 Honda crapped out on me this morning, and holds a low rpm, not putting out much power.  Will run a tool, but still won’t hold a higher rpm.
>>> -I borrowed an identical 5000 Honda generator, and it seemed to be doing fine for about 1.5 hours. 
>>> -Now it’s doing the same thing as the other generator.  The inverter system throws an error, the generator is taken offline, and the generator rpm go up.
>>> -If I manually manipulate the throttle not he generator lower, then the inverter re-engages.
>>> 
>>> What the heck could this be?  I don’t want to fry the borrowed generator, but we can’t systematically bypass the inverter, and the house requires the power.
>>> 
>>> Ron Young
>>> earthRight - Solareagle
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