[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems

[Ray Walters]

Hey I think Rapid shutdown is a cool idea too: you walk up and hit one 
button and everything is safe.  I've advocated for increased safety 
including for batteries.  But its at a cost: a big cost, especially for 
small systems.  While we debate what 690.12 applies to and which 
equipment might work, the average off gridder yawns and buys stuff off 
the internet; him and his buddy grab a 12 pack and they start hacking it 
together.  Every dollar we add to the system cost is moving the safety 
we offer further from lower income people.  Just ask how many inverters 
sold last month on the internet.
The overall effect is not safer solar overall; instead its the uber rich 
get the Rapid Shutdown, and the poor go for welding cable straight to 
the battery.
And now lets talk Fire Fighter safety: who's shanty is going to be their 
next 3 alarm fire?
Let's not leave regular people out of the safety equation, or we're 
really just burning all of us, and the industry too.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/26/2015 6:57 PM, jay wrote:
> I agree but how you shut it down is very different.
>
> We can shut down BB inverter from the AC side as well.
> Much easier, cheaper and does the same job.
>
> my 2 cents.
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Tump <tump at swnl.net> wrote:
>>
>> Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals!  We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters.
>>
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
>>
>>> I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy).  He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc.  Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations.  UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown.
>>> 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured.  The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump.  I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule.  Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery.  I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads.
>>> Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed.
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> 303 505-8760
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