[RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators

Thu Apr 9 13:22:35 PDT 2015

The home owner gets fined & typically they sue the installer & supplier. This is why ONAN was actually calling me to verify that the installation is for a utility supplied home and not an off grid installation. This is happening. I am just passing along the gist of a 43 minute phone call with Onan.
I have contacted several other genset suppliers late yesterday and they concurred with the Onan reps statements.
This applies regardless of the fuel type.
I am going to try to get some written definition and will pass it along. In the mean time:
Is there a generator supplier on the list that can fill us in a bit more?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 Please consider the environment before printing this email.

-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Luke Christy
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 11:54 AM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators

Dana,
I find this emissions-related issue pretty interesting. It hasn't been totally clear to me why these generator manufacturers keep taking various models off their "off-grid rated" lists, but this seems to shed a little more light on the issue.

However, I've been under the impression that the really restrictive tier 4 regulations were mainly targeted at high horsepower diesel gensets. Does a tiny (relatively speaking)  propane genset have to meet the same runtime restrictions, etc?

In this penalty scenario where someone is getting fined $39k/day for running a standby power only generator in a non-standby situation, who is at risk of getting fined? Surely not the property owner… And how could that possibly be enforced? 

Best,
-Luke

Luke Christy

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03       
CoSEIA Certified PV Installer 

Solar Gain Services, LLC
PO Box 531
Monte Vista, CO. 81144
SGSRenewables at Gmail.com
719.588.3044
www.sgsrenewables.com

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:23:59 -0600
From: "Dana" <dana at solarwork.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators
Message-ID: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey All - 

I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically.

I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house.
Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. 

Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine?

A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. 

The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! 

Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el.

If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator.
Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH.  Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. 

So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators?

There is a business opportunity here folks.

What are you all installing?

Why?

Is it reliable?

Would you use it on your house?

Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dana Orzel 

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 

O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

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