[RE-wrenches] outback radian question

Thu Mar 19 20:09:36 PDT 2015

I wanted to expand on my prior post.  Attached is a capture from a job
where the CFL and LED lights in the house kept burning out.  The generator
was suspected (they always seemed to fail after the generator ran), but its
voltage and frequency read "normal"on my Fluke 87, even a little bit low.
The red trace is the current, the blue is the voltage.  Note the voltage
line runs off the page -- yep, the loads were seeing over 200v line to
neutral, 400 L-L when charging due to the way that inverter and that
generator's regulation circuit fought.  I backed off the charging current
until the peak voltage came back within line, there was still a spike but
it wasn't sooo distorted.

O'scopes and generators.  Darned handy.

Phil

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Phil Undercuffler <solarphil at gmail.com>
wrote:

> There are two generator charging modes in the Radian -- Generator, and
> Support.  Generator is also known as diode style charging (there's a diode
> symbol that shows up in the Mate3 screen when in this mode) because it's a
> simple circuit that allows the inverter to work with lower quality
> generators with poor regulation -- as long as the voltage is higher on that
> side of the circuit, energy will flow from the generator to the battery.
> Generators with less than ideal regulation will distort their waveform (see
> Jamo's reference to that very informative whitepaper), especially as loads
> increase or if reactive loads are present, but the battery will get
> charged.  In Support mode, the Radian can operate in parallel with the
> generator, to both support loads that exceed the generator's rating but
> also to improve the load's power factor presented to the generator.
>
> If you're seeing spurious behavior with the customer's generator and one
> of the charging modes, try the other charging mode.
>
> BTW, I picked up an inexpensive USB o'scope a couple years ago from a
> company called Pico, it uses my laptop to be both the memory and screen.  I
> will admit to being a bit of a gear geek, but the ability to see both
> voltage and current waveform overlaid on each other in real-world field
> conditions has been an eye opener.  It's a permanent fixture in my meter
> bag nowadays.
>
> HTH,
>
> Phil
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Pegg <kpegg at energyalternatives.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so,
>> so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports
>> we created.
>>
>> We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily
>> replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some
>> harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the
>> Outback charging circuit.
>>
>> We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something
>> of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be
>> any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter
>> sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And
>> the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of
>> course the clients needed to run.
>>
>> At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW
>> once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by
>> replacing the inverter with another brand.
>>
>> It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several
>> systems at our cost.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On
>> Behalf Of Ray Walters
>> Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin;
>>
>> I have both a comment and a question:
>>
>> Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered
>> directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as
>> chargers.  My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor
>> waveform regulation with the generator.  This is easy to check with a
>> Fluke 87 or 89.  Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the
>> waveform is.  A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41
>> times the RMS, or 169 vac.  I've seen them as low as 135,  or
>> alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s.
>> Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those.
>>
>> Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:
>> > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters.
>> Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of
>> computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject
>> the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok
>> if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on
>> inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad.
>> >
>> > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so
>> keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge.
>> >
>> > Kevin
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On
>> > Behalf Of jay peltz
>> > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM
>> > To: RE-wrenches
>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
>> >
>> >
>> > HI All,
>> >
>> > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing
>> with a generator?
>> >
>> > I have a customer with flickering lights.
>> > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off)
>> >
>> > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the
>> Radian.
>> > I've not heard this and don't believe it.
>> >
>> > symptoms:
>> > radian alone:  no flicker
>> > generator alone: no flicker
>> > generator/charging flicker.
>> > different generator: no flicker.
>> >
>> > So there is no doubt its the generator.
>> >
>> > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > jay
>> >
>> > peltz power
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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