[RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

Dana dana at solarwork.com
Tue Feb 10 15:36:33 PST 2015


I have to share Jays experience here. I have lost track of how many OB inverters and charge controllers I have installed since OB hit the scene. 

I have never had a dead unit out of a box and have only had to swap out 4 sets of circuit broads over the years(mostly due to lightning related). I have never had a bad board initially and not had a replacement die.

 

I can say that the wait on the tech line has lengthened severely over time and leaving a message for a call back is a joke (3 days till a response on the last message I left).

 

I have to applaud the OB collection of equipment for compatibility OB to OB and communication has been great. The old Trace SW series used to have “HAL2001” on the front panel as a reference to 2001 Space Odyssey movie because it ran the ship. I would have to say that today’s OB equipment has taken that a step further. I live in OB GTVFX grid tied with battery backup for the last 10 years and it has been flawless.

 

I caution the new owners of OB to not get complacent (Xanterex is a prime example) and keep the quality that they were famous for and improve the tech support access. When I am on a site 2 hours from the shop, barely have cell service, & need tech support, I need it then not in 3 days & the email response time is typically the same as leaving a message.

 

I will continue for now to install OB.

 

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Dana Orzel 

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 

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"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 12:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

 

It's amazing how different our experiences are with the same equipment!

 

I've installed hundreds of outbacks, and fixed my share to be sure. But they are the only one I know of that sends just boards and that you don't have to send the inverter back ( offgrid ). In the dozens of rebuilt outbacks, I've never had to re-fix one. 

Their ship time on board sets is pretty fast. 

The CC issue is long in the past, FYI

 

 

Out of the dozen magnums I've installed I've had one DOA, another fail in 2 months, and a 3rd that had such bad rf noise I had to replace it with a VFX. 

My last failure took almost 3 weeks from removal to replacement while I waited to get it back. Yes fixed for free. 

 

Schneider no longer sends board sets. I just had a customer buy a new XW, vs try and repair it, given the unknown repair time or cost, truck cost both ways, my time etc. 

 

SMA, wish I could get my clients to afford them!  

 

 

So I'm with john. 

 

Jay

Peltz power. 

 

 

 

On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:01 PM, John Blittersdorf <john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote:

Allan,

    I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough.  FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired.  All have been switched to Outback.  The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX.  I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums.  I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information.  Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring.   I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE.  All is now calm on the mountaintop.

 

John Blittersdorf

Central Vermont Solar & wind

 

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar <allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote:

Esteemed Wrenches,
This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question.

The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. 

The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor?

The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?

Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units.

Here are the issues that I see: 
Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor.

Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. 

But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? 

Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday...
Allan

-- 

Allan Sindelar
allan at sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 <tel:505%20780-2738>  cell

 


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