[RE-wrenches] Modules over vents
Nick Soleil
nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com
Thu Sep 25 21:23:19 PDT 2014
If you have access to the attic, then one option is to reroute the plumbing
vent to a north facing roof or an unused section of the roof. I've done
this in the past.
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Benn Kilburn <benn at skyfireenergy.com>
wrote:
> I'll echo what Matt suggests about not relying on an inspector (electrical
> or plumbing) to "catch" this.
>
> That doesn't make it a best practice and just because you can get away
> with it then you should be doing it.
> Do your due diligence and find out what the Plumbing Code in your area
> requires AND run the idea/concept by an inspector (plumbing).
> And again, just because the plumbing code may allow it, technically, it
> still doesn't make it a best practice method.
>
> I had a plumbing inspector get back to me today and he cited a plumbing
> code 2.5.6.5 Article 5 (Alberta Plumbing Code, I assume), which basically
> says the sewer vent must be high enough to prevent any run-off from
> entering the vent *however it cannot be less than 150mm (6 inches)*.
> This means we could not install mods over a sewer vent using our typical
> racking system (on asphalt shingles) which only gets the back of the module
> 4 to maybe 4-1/2" off the roof. And if we did install a taller L-foot or
> stand-off that would give us say an inch or even 3 inches of clearance,
> then you have the potential issue of condensation freezing and building up
> on the back of the module in the winter and potentially blocking the vent
> altogether.
> That might not be a concern if you are in a warmer climate, but here in
> Alberta and i'm sure much of the US, it is very possible that this could
> happen.
>
> Regardless, i'm pleased to have found out the minimum height required for
> these vents as i will be looking to trim down any taller ones that will
> cause some shading. Always looking to maximize system performance, a few
> inches (several in some cases) trimmed off the height of a vent will be
> just that much less shading and increased system output. I can't imagine it
> would be too much, but....
>
> Cheers,
> Benn
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Matt Partymiller <
> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> In our shared region plumbing code requires vents be 12" above roof line.
>> Electrical inspectors probably won't catch this, plumbing inspectors
>> probably won't get on a roof, but still there is a code concern. You
>> might exercise some caution.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> Matthew Partymiller
>> Solar Energy Solutions LLC
>> (877) 312-7456
>> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com
>>
>> On Wed, September 24, 2014 6:49 pm, Carl Adams wrote:
>> > Bruce,
>> > We routinely cut off DWV as suggested by earlier posts so that they are
>> at
>> > least 1 inch below the surface of the back of the module.
>> >
>> > To be clear these are sewage intake air vents and not exhaust vents for
>> > heating appliances.
>> >
>> > We do place a quarter inch wire cloth over the cut off vent and apply a
>> > four inch stainless steel hose clamp around the pipe just to prevent
>> > foreign objects from entering the vent pipe.
>> >
>> > I have never had an inspector question this method.
>> >
>> >
>> > With Regards
>> > Carl Adams, President
>> > SunRock Solar
>> > 513.290.9072 (cell)
>> > 513.766.6025 (office)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sep 24, 2014, at 1:37 PM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree with Kurt: you need a licensed plumber in your area to
>> > advise you, if you're trying to keep the AHJs happy . 2nd, I'm very
>> sure
>> > you don't want an exhaust/ combustion type vent under the array. I've
>> > had several over the years, and seen some arrays installed over them.
>> > They can get fairly hot and put quite a bit of steam out. I would not
>> > trust the module backing material to a concentrated long term dose;
>> which
>> > module is going to have a problem first? R.Ray Walters
>> > CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> > Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> > Licensed Master Electrician
>> > Solar Design Engineer
>> > 303 505-8760
>> > On 9/24/2014 11:16 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote:
>> >
>> >> Should you decide to lower your plumbing vents I have found an inside
>> >> pipe cutter to be an inexpensive and handy tool. Cut the vent and lead
>> >> off an inch above your desired pipe height and use the inside cutter to
>> >> cut the pvc pipe. Go slow and be careful to keep air space between the
>> >> pvc and lead as the lead will cut very easily.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Also I wouldn't rely on us well intentioned wrenches to make the call
>> >> on the plumbing code in your jurisdiction. Though the state plumbing
>> >> codes are usually based on the international code, there will be
>> >> differences. If you can't pull up your state plumbing code online then
>> >> ask your plumbing inspector. In Florida the minimum height above a roof
>> >> surface is 6" (904.1). As for relocating 905.2 states that “all vent
>> >> and branch vent pipes shall be so graded and connected as to drain back
>> >> to the drainage pipe by gravity†. Table 710.1(1) shows that for
>> >> 1.5†pipe a slope of ¼†per foot is sufficient to handle 3
>> >> fixtures. I would take that to indicate ¼†/ foot is plenty for a
>> >> 1.5†vent.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Dave Click <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> Flipping through the '04 plumbing code I see a few slopes called out
>> >>> (1/4" per 1' for fixture vents, 1" per 1' for circuit vents, 1/2" per
>> >>> 1' for combination drain/vent...). Fixture vents have a maximum
>> >>> distance of a few feet from fixture trap to vent, but I don't think
>> >>> this prevents you from then running that vent horizontally. 916.2
>> >>> states that for vents other than stack vents or vent stacks if your
>> >>> vent is >40' you need to upsize the whole vent pipe (tough to do for
>> >>> an existing building, of course). Stack vents have a "maximum
>> >>> developed length" of 100' for a 1.5" vent which should be enough
>> >>> space to get away from under the PV. I don't see any slope
>> >>> requirements specifically for stack vents but my non-plumber's eye
>> >>> may be missing something.
>> >>>
>> >>> The stack vent sizing Table 916.1 appears (in part) here too and it
>> >>> looks like the tables match up to a 2.5":
>> >>> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/drainage-vents-d_1110.html
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> DKC
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 2014/9/24 10:19, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I am unable to find anything in the Florida code that precludes
>> >>>> covering a plumbing vent. The code does require the vent to be 6"
>> >>>> above the roof surface I believe.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was unable to determine if these vents need to be vertical with
>> >>>> no bends in the attic. Obviously you wouldn't want to create a trap
>> >>>> in the attic, but a couple of 45's to relocate a plumbing vent to
>> >>>> accommodate more PV seems like a desirable thing to do sometimes.
>> >>>> Does anyone know if these can be relocated, i.e. to an adjacent
>> >>>> roof surface?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On my own home I had a vent to deal with. I broke out my saws-all,
>> >>>> split the lead like a banana and peeled it back, cut the pipe at an
>> >>>> angle, and folded the lead back into the pipe after applying
>> >>>> sealant between the lead and pipe. There is a 1" gap between the
>> >>>> rim of the pipe and the back of the module. My theory on this
>> >>>> working safely is that, a) there will be far less rainwater falling
>> >>>> in and around this pipe with a module over it, and b) it is about
>> >>>> 24" from the roof ridge and there is a module over it so there will
>> >>>> be very little water sheeting down from
>> >>>> above the vent. Code notwithstanding, I felt this was a solid
>> >>>> method on my own home, and I have inspected it after 6 months of
>> >>>> Florida downpours and found no issues.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski
>> >>>> Fafco Solar
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Bill Loesch
>> >>>> <solar1online at charter.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Bruce, August, et al,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This is but one more example of confusing terminology. A plumbing
>> >>>>> vent is not an exhaust vent!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A plumbing vent (what August calls a cold vent) is provided to
>> >>>>> allow the sanitary drain traps (and perhaps more) to operate
>> >>>>> properly. Without the properly functioning traps you would have
>> >>>>> sewer gas smell and sewer gas from the plumbing fixtures. This
>> >>>>> was commonplace when indoor plumbing was introduced to early
>> >>>>> adopters.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> An exhaust vent is another animal entirely. An exhaust vent
>> >>>>> carries the combustion products to a suitable exterior location
>> >>>>> for dilution with ambient air. With the advent of power vented
>> >>>>> combustion appliances, a direct vent (one that takes in
>> >>>>> combustion air from the outside and naturally exhausts combustion
>> >>>>> products to the outside) is IMHO the only responsible way to
>> >>>>> install any power vented appliance in a freezing climate. (Power
>> >>>>> vented appliances come in both condensing and non-condensing
>> >>>>> flavors-they can penetrate the side wall or the roof).
>> >>>>> Originally, two separate pipes (with two independent properly
>> >>>>> separated penetrations) was used. That technique is still often
>> >>>>> used today. More recently concentric vents have been introduced
>> >>>>> both for condensing and non-condensing applications. A concentric
>> >>>>> vent can simplify some installations by putting the exhaust pipe
>> >>>>> inside a larger air intake pipe allowing for one, albeit larger,
>> >>>>> penetration. As you might imagine if the exhaust flow is
>> >>>>> hindered/diverted/redirected by an inappropriately located solar
>> >>>>> module combustion gasses will be re-ingested into the intake air.
>> >>>>> Not good for equipment performance. My understanding is the power
>> >>>>> vented appliance manufacturer dictates what kind of
>> >>>>> separation/clearances are needed with their product. My guess is
>> >>>>> you find they want at least a foot of separation between the top
>> >>>>> of the " inverted cone" and the module. Probably not what you had
>> >>>>> in mind for an aesthetically pleasing installation.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I hope this helps,
>> >>>>> Bill Loesch
>> >>>>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>> >>>>> 314 631 1094
>> >>>>> On 23-Sep-14 6:54 PM, August
>> >>>>> Goers wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bruce and All,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sorry, I hit send before I had a chance to complete my
>> >>>>>> thoughts. What I meant to say was that I've found AHJs often
>> >>>>>> allow us to cover cold plumbing vents but I've never tried or
>> >>>>>> had any luck with covering hot vents including condensing boiler
>> >>>>>> PVC vents. Once again, if in doubt you
>> >>>>>> could see what the plan checker or inspector thinks.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> August
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com]
>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:15 PM
>> >>>>>> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>> >>>>>> Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bruce,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'll send you the CA plumbing code vent section offlist
>> >>>>>> (attachment too
>> >>>>>> large for this list). The way I read the code is that you
>> >>>>>> technically can't cover any type of plumbing or hot vent.
>> >>>>>> However, and I've run into
>> >>>>>> little resistance from AHJs in the Bay Area by covering these.
>> >>>>>> You might
>> >>>>>> want to check in with your plan checker.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> August
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Luminalt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: RE-wrenches
>> >>>>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>> >>>>>> Behalf Of Bruce Leininger
>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:49 PM
>> >>>>>> To: RE-wrenches
>> >>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi all. We're designing a system on a roof that is literally
>> >>>>>> infested with plumbing, exhaust and combustion vents. The
>> >>>>>> combustion vents are PVC and none of the vents are more than
>> >>>>>> 1.5' above the roof.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A racking company says that we can cover them with modules,
>> >>>>>> since the modules will be at least 4' above the roof. They have
>> >>>>>> not yet provided any building code references to say that this
>> >>>>>> is ok. Do any of you know if the building code allows this?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bruce
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>
> --
>
> *Benn Kilburn *
> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
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--
Cordially,
*Nick Soleil*
*Field Applications Engineer*
*Enphase Energy*
Mobile: (707) 321-2937
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<nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com>
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