[RE-wrenches] Assembly Protects Conductors?

[jay peltz]

HI Mark,

I"ve been having this discussion with some others.

690.9B  I think means that the 2nd 125% is for breaker derating. 

I have looked and can't find anywhere in the code about conductors being derated for continuous use.  Other deratings yes, temp, conduit etc etc.
But there are many others out there way way better on code than me, and so correct me please.

IMHO, I think this 2nd 25% has been misinterpreted to mean conductor instead of breaker derating.  

jay

peltz power



On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Mark Frye wrote:

> Ray,
> 
> I can't follow you all the way down that path.
> 
> Is an insulated wire conductor permitted to be use at 100% of it's rating under continuous operation? No. The ampacity is reduced and the conductor must be up-sized. Hence, for a defined load (Isc * 1.25), under continious operation, the conductor must be upsized to match (defined load * 1.25). I don't see how this can be changed by simply changing the nature of the OCP. I think the point of this exception is to allow cost savings by allow assemblies and OCP devices with lower ratings. The exception does not apply to every element of the circuit (the conductors) but only to the 100% rated assemblies and OCP themselves.
> 
> What am I missing?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark
> 
> On 8/22/2014 6:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
>> Most combiner boxes, DC rated breakers, and DC rated fuses and fuse holders we use today, qualify as assemblies for the 100% exception (Outback, Midnite, etc.....) so you only have to size the OCP by 125% of short circuit current rating for edge of cloud effects.
>> Since the conductor is sized based on the overcurrent protection, you do not need to size it to 156% of the short circuit current rating, if you take advantage of 100% duty rated breakers and combiners.  Also, recombiners are still basically combiner boxes, and so all the same rules apply.  The additional 125% is only for breakers that are rated at 80%  (most AC breakers for example) .
>> For DC, the only time you would size for the full 156% would be if you were using something like an old QOU breaker, and those aren't rated for high enough voltage for today's arrays anyway.   I'm not aware of any other readily available DC rated breaker that is NOT 100% duty rated.   Some RK5 fuse assemblies may also not be 100% rated. (Wrench Colleagues please correct me on this....)
>> Basically unless you are using surplus equipment from the stone age, (no offense to my fellow stone age wrenches)  you only need to oversize the conductors by 125%.  By the time you apply all the other applicable deratings for conduit fill, terminals rated at 75 C, and direct sunlight on roofs (table 310.15B3c)  and consider voltage drop, you really don't need to keep oversizing.
>> 
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>> 
>> On 8/22/2014 2:34 PM, markf at berkeleysolar.com wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>> 
>>> In looking at a circuit breaker based re-combiner for the first time, I am
>>> now pondering the meaning of the Exception below:
>>> 
>>> NEC 2014 690.8 (B) Conductor Ampacity. PV system currents shall be
>>> considered to be continuous. Circuit conductors shall be
>>> sized to carry not less than the larger of 690.8(B)(1) or (2).
>>> 
>>> (1) One hundred and twenty-five percent of the maximum
>>> currents calculated in 690.8(A) before the application of
>>> adjustment and correction factors.
>>> 
>>> Exception: Circuits containing an assembly, together with
>>> its overcurrent device(s), that is listed for continuous operation
>>> at 100 percent of its rating shall be permitted to be
>>> used at 100 percent of its rating.
>>> 
>>> Just to be clear, it is only the assembly that can be used at 100 percent
>>> of its rating. (Isc*number of strings*1.25) The conductors in the circuit
>>> still have to be sized for continuous operation (Isc*number of
>>> strings*1.25*1.25).
>>> 
>>> I ask because a vendor with a 100% circuit breaker re-combiner states in
>>> their cut sheet that use of the device "allow
>>> smaller home run cable sizes from the string combiner to the inverter". Is
>>> anyone aware of a means by which this claim can be substantiated?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Mark Frye
>>> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
> 
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