[RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

Sun Feb 9 11:13:12 PST 2014

So the breaker is not the generator output breaker?
I would put a clamp amp meter on the breaker leads set on Max to record the
maximum current when it trips.

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:23 PM, <bruce at willpowerelect.com> wrote:

> True that on the DC genset, Kevin, but more or less removes the bypass
> option. Strongly considered breaker replacement as many are susceptible to
> harmonics, but a real PIA on this generator and haven't gotten around to it
> yet. Also going to run the gen shed ventilators off the line side of the
> gen when I replace the breaker to avoid overheating when breaker trips!
>
> Bruce
>
>  -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
> From: "Kevin Pegg" <kpegg at energyalternatives.ca>
> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 9:39 am
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
> about harmonics possibly being the culprit "
>
> Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for
> off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are the
> chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the
> charger circuit. Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would
> not run at all or reliably with gen running in charge mode.
>
> It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having to tear out several
> new outback systems & replace with another brand to keep customers happy.
>
> What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want
> to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie
> the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only.
> Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client buys
> hardware and says "make it all work". A DC genset would be way more
> efficient.
>
> Another thought have you tried another breaker on the gen? Weak breakers
> do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> ]*On Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com
> *Sent:* February 9, 2014 9:28 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>
> Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this
> system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer
> with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the
> hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades
> on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up!
> but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather.
> With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at
> about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge
> demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I
> set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload.
> Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
> about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not
> tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...
>
> Bruce
>
>  -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
> From: "RE Ellison" <reellison at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 am
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
>  Thanks Jay,
> We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs
> capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.
>  Glad you have a manual!
> It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!
>  Later,
> Bob Ellison
>     *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *jay peltz
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>  Hi guys,
>   The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,
>   jay
>  peltz power
>  On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:
>
>
>   Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me
> there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the
> chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.
>  I have found that "on paper" and reality do not always mix well.
>  Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator
> at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem
> to "like" the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery
> can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage
> charging we have with inverters, you're not getting anywhere near enough to
> max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or
> 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging
> off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.
>  Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day
> usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to
> run to keep up?
>   Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator
> usage.....
>   I can't speak on the HUP's. I have never used them, but might they be
> somewhat hard to charge?
>   Just some thoughts, but it's 3 am and I hope it makes sense in the
> morning when I reread it....
>   Later,
>  Bob
>      *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 09, 2014 1:29 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>    Hi Larry,
>    I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before
> adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and
> 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte
> almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't
> having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within
> .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and
> absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG.
> Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10
> charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving
> me about 5.
>    Bruce
>
>  -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
> From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"
> <larry at starlightsolar.com>
> Date: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 am
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>    Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery
> slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the
> recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time,
> and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.
>    At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard
> time getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery
> capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the
> battery. Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the
> limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the
> full output.
>    Larry
>   On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote:
>    Hi All,
>    3 VFX 3648
>  2 FM 80
>  6.5 kw solar
>  12 kw generator
>  PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking
>  Mate 3
>  HUP 1690 ah
>    System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling
> 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw)  Potential charge current from 2 arrays and
> FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?
>  Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the
> generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1
> 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @
> 240v) resistive without breaker trip.
>  I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12
> amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep
> the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or
> coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm
> only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less
> than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and
> compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the
> inverters when the generator is off.
>  I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I
> would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before
> deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but
> not so....
>  Any suggestions?
>    Thanks!
>    Bruce Fiero-RMI
>
>
>
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>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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