[RE-wrenches] AC Back feed from Radian.

Tom Duffy Tom at thesolar.biz
Mon Feb 17 12:36:33 PST 2014


Hi Guys

We have had “icing” problems here in Central America as well where the gas company put in ½’ pipe to a 12K Gillette Generator, same description the gen would initially start and run fine but then it went erratic the Radian didn’t like it, the customer wanted to blame the Radian (I was sure it wasn’t)

The installer/dealer couldn’t figure it out. I went out and immediately saw the small pipe, plus they had bent a crimp into the incoming fuel line as well. ¾” line fixed the whole thing. LP has a lot of moisture and will always have delivery problems with funky installation of pipe. Seems that a lot of gas guys just hook up kitchen ranges (Here)

Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
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From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 1:57 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Backfeed from Radian.

Hi John,
If this is the LPG unit, I have had really long cold days here in Truckee, diagnosing erratic engine behavior, trying all sorts of motor diagnostics, as we could get her running when we arrived after the sub zero nights, waiting a bit for the sun to warm up enough to hold a wrench without it sticking to the fingers. Then we’d leave to have the off grid owner calling us in the evening saying the Kohler went off line again.
Finally we traced it to icing in the LPG regulator, as the Gas company was delivering “dirty fuel” with some moisture in it. Calling the gas company they came out and added some “alcohol” or some sort of de-icer to the tank. This cleared up the problem immediately. Whew.

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Office 530-582-4503
Cell 530-448-9692
Fax 530-582-4603
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chris at solarwindworks.com<mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com>

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com<mailto:dan at foxfire-energy.com>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 6:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Backfeed from Radian.

Have the genny guy check the valves. and control fuse (and holders) for intermittent contact.



Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com<http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com>
NABCEP #092907-44

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Backfeed from Radian.
From: Tump <tump at swnl.net<mailto:tump at swnl.net>>
Date: Mon, February 17, 2014 7:51 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>

John, How many hours on this unit?  There have been issues w/ intake air freezing the TPS throttle positioning sensor. Has to do w/ poor crankcase ventilation, is the gen located inside or out? The nylon throttle bushings also wear out and cause all kinds of problems. It would seem to me that having isolated the gen from the inverter (all disconnects/inverter bypassed) and you STILL are seeing a failure then I suspect there IS one in the gen. Those units did also have a wire chaffing /pinching issue at the brush cover, check that. I believe they also have fuses  for the exciter circuit so I would hope they would trip on "LR" situation.
On Feb 16, 2014, at 10:02 PM, john wrote:

Wrenches,
    I have an off-grid installation with an Outback Radian using a Kohler RES 13 for backup.  The generator has had problems from day one and has had control boards replaced and other work done on it.  This system started out with a Magnum 4024AE but was undersized for the loads and battery size so we upgraded to the Radian.  The current problem is the generator running erratically (frequency and voltage) and running rough.  The Kohler repairman said that the problem is that the inverter had damaged the generator with a measured 12 VAC at the inverter side of the AC IN breaker when the generator is off.  When I arrived, we started the generator with the MATE 3 and it worked fine for about 10 minutes charging at 4.5 kw and then the engine started running erratically.  The frequency readout on the MATE 3 ranged from 56 Hz to 67 Hz and the voltage was sometimes steady at 238 and at times varying from 236 to 244.  The MATE 3 showed several manual starts previously where the Initial voltage was 277 briefly (1 second) and then leveled out and locked on. Eventually the generator shut down with Error 13.  We also had it fail to start with Locked Rotor error.  I did measure 3.1 VAC on the AC out bus of the inverter when the generator was stopped.  Is that small voltage present normal for the Radian and is there any way that could affect the generator?   When I set the MATE 3 to DROP to disconnect the charging, we could still read the hz and Voltage at the bus and the erratic behavior continued.  I think there are serious problems with the generator but the Kohler tech says it is the inverter interference .  When we started the generator manually with the input breaker off, it ran erratic and eventually shut down.

The customer wants the generator guy and myself there tomorrow to figure out how to fix it.   I say a new generator might take care of the problem but the customer doesn't want to hear this.
Any ideas?  I have dealt with lots of generators and to me this seems like a worn out genny.

John Blittersdorf
Central Vermont Solar & Wind


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