[RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

Fri Nov 15 04:15:15 PST 2013

HellermannTyton has a free solar sample pack with various UV stable cable
ties, stainless ties, labels, etc. I got my vendor to send one and from
that ordered a bunch of useful items.

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Benn At DayStarSolar
<benn at daystarsolar.ca>wrote:

> SS cable ties for ~.33/ea
> http://electricalwireties.com
>
> benn
> Sent from a 'smart' phone, with touch screen keys. Please excuse shortcuts
> and typos.
>
> On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>
> Where are you buying them from?  I am so ready to move away from plastic
> zip ties.  59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable.  Last time
> I looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.
>
> Thanks,
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760
>
> On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>
> Bill.....we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable
> ties....They are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant vinyl
> jacket....We have been getting them in quantities of 500 for approximately
> $.59 each....for the 12" length ties....We like them alot....they do not
> have any sharp edges and are easy to install....
> Hope that helps....
>
>
>  Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy <frenergy at psln.com> wrote:
>
>>  William, Bill....from another Bill,
>>
>>         Two things:  For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!) that's
>> still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4 connector into
>> conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for fear of the sharp edges
>> cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open for advice. Any wire I use on the
>> roof is rated for that type of service and I have some off-grid systems
>> that have been in the sun for some 25 years where the wire still looks
>> nearly new even when flexing it to look for checking/cracks.  It seems
>> the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to "wire
>> management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof, secured to the
>> racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
>>
>>         I know many on this list are way past this point in their
>> installation skills.  However my living in a county in the bush of just 20K
>> folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of systems....yet.
>> Again, I express my humble appreciation of experienced wrenches to help
>> those of us working to install the tightest systems possible despite living
>> in the boonies.
>>
>>         Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties (rounded
>> edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated.  My goto place for such
>> things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that range from $1.50 to $3
>> each, but none that I can see that address the sharp edge issue...or is
>> that an issue?  Have people been using regular SS wire ties in the field
>> for 10-20 years, behind a roof mounted array without any issues related to
>> the wire ties?
>> Thanks for your help and patience,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA  95983
>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>> "solar powered since 1982"
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Loesch" <solar1online at charter.net>
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>>
>>  >
>> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe themselves as
>> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
>> >
>> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on wire
>> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
>> >
>> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
>> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
>> >
>> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
>> >
>> > Bill Loesch
>> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bill:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic:  Define "perfectly
>> >> installed."  If
>> >> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
>> >> protected
>> >> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe lifetime of
>> >> service.  How can you guarantee that your leads will stay protected
>> >> after
>> >> the ties fail?  Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will
>> >> fail well
>> >> before the life expectancy of the system has expired.  When the ties
>> >> fail,
>> >> your PV leads are hanging on the roof.  Even before the ties fail,
>> >> rodents
>> >> can chew on them.  Conduit was invented for a reason and we should be
>> >> using
>> >> it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I
>> >> don't
>> >> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring practices.  I
>> >> think
>> >> wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on any
>> >> other
>> >> high voltage circuit.  Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
>> >> conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal framework with
>> >> plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by your local
>> >> inspector.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection
>> >> standards for
>> >> two reasons:
>> >>
>> >> 1.    In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts, and was
>> >> treated
>> >> as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of
>> >> conventional low
>> >> voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.
>> >>
>> >> 2.    It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe are
>> >> not
>> >> stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years.
>> >> Products
>> >> were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had to work
>> >> with
>> >> the equipment available.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."  We have
>> >> seen
>> >> PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get damaged
>> >> under
>> >> BPIV components as well.  I believe that protecting PV wire is more
>> >> important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring because PV
>> >> circuits
>> >> are more prone to create and sustain arcing.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much expense
>> >> to PV
>> >> installations.  Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably, injuries
>> >> and
>> >> deaths.  One news story about an obscure, rarely used product is
>> >> already
>> >> causing many of us headaches.  Statistically, it is inevitable that
>> >> more
>> >> accidents will happen. I don't want that on my conscience.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I would suggest that we need to expand the discussion beyond fire
>> >> hazards.
>> >> I also worry about electrocution hazards in high voltage PV circuits.
>> >> Good
>> >> wire protection is essential in preventing contact with high voltages.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Unprotected PV wiring is an irresponsible practice.  I am fighting an
>> >> uphill
>> >> battle to develops methods to protect PV wiring because the industry
>> >> is not
>> >> helping at all.  The trend has been to make it harder to protect
>> >> wiring.
>> >> This trend will result in accidents.  I think we should do better.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> William Miller
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill
>> >> Brooks
>> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:38 PM
>> >> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> William and David,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The longer
>> >> we
>> >> wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the more we
>> >> will
>> >> have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings
>> >> forward.
>> >> Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a problem-sure,
>> >> just
>> >> like anything improperly installed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At the end of the day, you can a have a perfectly installed system,
>> >> but if
>> >> it does not have arc fault detection and high resolution ground fault
>> >> detection, it can still catch on fire. You have no control over
>> >> product
>> >> failures other than buying from large companies that can actually
>> >> insure
>> >> their products in a failure.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Fires are not that common, but it didn't tak
>>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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