[RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Thu Nov 14 09:51:37 PST 2013
Where are you buying them from? I am so ready to move away from plastic
zip ties. 59 cents is quite a bit, but that's actually doable. Last
time I looked at SS ties, they were a couple bucks each.
Thanks,
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 11/14/2013 9:41 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
> Bill.....we have been using the Hellerman Tyton Sunbundler cable
> ties....They are braided stainless steel wire with a UV resistant
> vinyl jacket....We have been getting them in quantities of 500 for
> approximately $.59 each....for the 12" length ties....We like them
> alot....they do not have any sharp edges and are easy to install....
> Hope that helps....
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Renewable Energy Systems
> www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com>
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-592-3958 o
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, frenergy <frenergy at psln.com
> <mailto:frenergy at psln.com>> wrote:
>
> William, Bill....from another Bill,
> Two things: For the rest of us (maybe it's just me?!)
> that's still trying to figure out how (or why) to stuff a MC4
> connector into conduit and my hesitation in using SS wire ties for
> fear of the sharp edges cutting or chaffing into cables, I'm open
> for advice. Any wire I use on the roof is rated for that type of
> service and I have some off-grid systems that have been in the sun
> for some 25 years where the wire still looks nearly new even when
> flexing it to look for checking/cracks. It seems
> the wire/insulation can take it, thus it seems like the key to
> "wire management is to keep the wire from moving and off the roof,
> secured to the racking, thus not compromising the insulation.
> I know many on this list are way past this point in their
> installation skills. However my living in a county in the bush of
> just 20K folks, I haven't had the opportunity to install 100's of
> systems....yet. Again, I express my humble appreciation of
> experienced wrenches to help those of us working to install the
> tightest systems possible despite living in the boonies.
> Details on where to source appropriate SS wire ties
> (rounded edges?, plastic coated?) would be appreciated. My goto
> place for such things (Grainger) has "regular" SS wire ties that
> range from $1.50 to $3 each, but none that I can see that address
> the sharp edge issue...or is that an issue? Have people been
> using regular SS wire ties in the field for 10-20 years, behind a
> roof mounted array without any issues related to the wire ties?
> Thanks for your help and patience,
> Bill
> Feather River Solar Electric
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849 <tel:530.284.7849> / 6544 fax
> "solar powered since 1982"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Loesch" <solar1online at charter.net
> <mailto:solar1online at charter.net>>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods
>
> >
> > Hi William (and any other person who wishes to describe
> themselves as
> > professional (designer, installer, etc.)),
> >
> > Please accept this note as confirmation that your evangelism on
> wire
> > management has not fallen on entirely deaf ears.
> >
> > Additionally, I'm curious how the practice of requiring a ten year
> > equipment warranty squares with the acceptance of plastic wire ties.
> >
> > Sincere thanks from one convert,
> >
> > Bill Loesch
> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:41 PM, William Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Bill:
> >>
> >>
> >> I respectfully disagree with your logic: Define "perfectly
> >> installed." If
> >> your connections are tight and permanent and the conductors are
> >> protected
> >> from damage, you have a great chance of a reliable, safe
> lifetime of
> >> service. How can you guarantee that your leads will stay
> protected
> >> after
> >> the ties fail? Studies show that even UV resistant wire ties will
> >> fail well
> >> before the life expectancy of the system has expired. When the
> ties
> >> fail,
> >> your PV leads are hanging on the roof. Even before the ties fail,
> >> rodents
> >> can chew on them. Conduit was invented for a reason and we
> should be
> >> using
> >> it.
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree that arc-fault breakers will improve the situation, but I
> >> don't
> >> think any form of OCPD is a substitute for good wiring
> practices. I
> >> think
> >> wire protection is just as important on PV circuits as it is on
> any
> >> other
> >> high voltage circuit. Try getting away with wiring a rooftop air
> >> conditioning unit by tying the conductors to some metal
> framework with
> >> plastic ties and see how long it takes to get red-tagged by
> your local
> >> inspector.
> >>
> >>
> >> I suspect we've gotten to where we are on lax wire protection
> >> standards for
> >> two reasons:
> >>
> >> 1. In the early days, PV was low voltage, 12 to 24 volts,
> and was
> >> treated
> >> as such, even though current capabilities exceeded that of
> >> conventional low
> >> voltage thermostat, door-bell and telephone wiring.
> >>
> >> 2. It is my understanding that PV wiring standards in Europe
> are
> >> not
> >> stringent, and European demand drove the PV market for many years.
> >> Products
> >> were built to satisfy the European market and US standards had
> to work
> >> with
> >> the equipment available.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some would say: "if it is under the array, it is protected."
> We have
> >> seen
> >> PV wire getting damaged under arrays and it is possible to get
> damaged
> >> under
> >> BPIV components as well. I believe that protecting PV wire is more
> >> important than protecting conventional AC circuit wiring
> because PV
> >> circuits
> >> are more prone to create and sustain arcing.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some say that protecting PV wire in conduits will add too much
> expense
> >> to PV
> >> installations. Consider the cost of fires and, inevitably,
> injuries
> >> and
> >> deaths. One news story about an obscure, rarely used product is
> >> already
> >> causing many of us headaches. Statistically, it is inevitable
> that
> >> more
> >> accidents will happen. I don't want that on my conscience.
> >>
> >>
> >> I would suggest that we need to expand the discussion beyond fire
> >> hazards.
> >> I also worry about electrocution hazards in high voltage PV
> circuits.
> >> Good
> >> wire protection is essential in preventing contact with high
> voltages.
> >>
> >>
> >> Unprotected PV wiring is an irresponsible practice. I am
> fighting an
> >> uphill
> >> battle to develops methods to protect PV wiring because the
> industry
> >> is not
> >> helping at all. The trend has been to make it harder to protect
> >> wiring.
> >> This trend will result in accidents. I think we should do better.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >>
> >> William Miller
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Bill
> >> Brooks
> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:38 PM
> >> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 6, Issue 423
> >>
> >>
> >> William and David,
> >>
> >>
> >> This particular problem goes away with arc fault detection. The
> longer
> >> we
> >> wait to introduce arc fault detection into our systems, the
> more we
> >> will
> >> have opportunities for news reports such as the one William brings
> >> forward.
> >> Wire ties are not the problem. Could a wire tie cause a
> problem-sure,
> >> just
> >> like anything improperly installed.
> >>
> >>
> >> At the end of the day, you can a have a perfectly installed
> system,
> >> but if
> >> it does not have arc fault detection and high resolution ground
> fault
> >> detection, it can still catch on fire. You have no control over
> >> product
> >> failures other than buying from large companies that can actually
> >> insure
> >> their products in a failure.
> >>
> >>
> >> Fires are not that common, but it didn't take much to get all the
> >> viewers of
> >> this news report up in arms did it?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
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