[RE-wrenches] wrenches] Battery Experience

Jason Lerner wapalco at rockisland.com
Sat Jul 14 13:11:54 PDT 2012 

Hello John.

I checked out your data monitoring site.  Can you get state of charge,  inverter/charge controller mode (bulk, absorb, float) error codes/warnings,  aux on/off,  individual shunt readings,  and other info such as days since charge parameters met straight from the Mate as well?  Is there a user/homeowner page and an installer page?

Thanks much,

Jason

Waldron Power and Light Co.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 5:24 AM, john wrote:

> 
> John,
>  
> I guess you could sum up your excellant battery survival guide by suggesting that all installers insist that their customers should add more solar it they are not getting fully charged daily( or at least every few days).  I am finally having the enjoyment of watching (with a WattMetrics monitoring system) one of my off grid customer's recent doubling of his solar array and seeing the perfect bulk, absorb, float senario on a daily basis.  PV panels are now cheaper than buying batteries so if someone has a large battery bank, they owe it to themselves and their batteries to properly power them. Any of you not into remote monitoring yet, check out www.wattmetrics.com  and look at Indian Pond site.  This site is a two hour drive away and the owner has hired me to make sure the system is up and running at max efficiency at all times. .
>  
> John
> CV Solar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John DeBoever <jdeboever at trojanbattery.com>
> To: Howie <Howie at CatamountSolar.com>; RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:02 pm
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
> 
> Howie,
>  
> I would assume that the batteries at your home are actually getting full attention to reach full charge most of the time and getting equalization every 30 cycles, whereas the ones supposedly in “floating mode during 350 days a year” actually are not getting full attention and most are challenged in corrosion, stratification, possibly sulfatation, if not watering issues...
>  
> Few recommendations:
> o   Watering, watering, watering: follow battery OEM recommendations.
> o   Voltage settings: follow battery OEM recommendations.
> o   Never assume that the battery was in floating mode all the time because nobody was at home, with all the probable phantom loads, cable losses and power conditioning losses.
> o   It might also have left and stayed at PSOC for a long time, thus engaged a sulfation process. When sulfated, PSOC can happens as the solar charger might “perceive” a floating charge condition since the battery voltage is raising up quickly, due to increased resistance to charging. Thus the controls switches to floating mode thinking the battery reached 95% SOC…
> Note: Lead sulfate crystals form as a natural part of the discharge process on the surface of the plate pores of the active material. Sulfation ≡ Large lead sulfate crystals. Sulfation becomes a problem when large crystals form and become difficult to decompose by charging. Hard sulfation is caused by:
> §  Not charging the battery up to 100% SOC at each discharge – charge cycle
> §  Allowing the battery to stay in a discharged condition (PSOC) for too long, too often
> §  High stratification of sulfuric acid (S.G low at the top of the jar, while high at the bottom of the jar)
> §  Uneven S.G. between cells ( some will sulfate faster, some will “boils”, thus loosing water)
> §  Operating battery in excessive temperatures (ageing the battery faster)
> o   Deep-cycles flooded lead acid batteries require to be fully charged after each discharge to stay in good health.  PSOC is acceptable in a very limited duration.
> o   The flooded lead acid batteries also require regular equalization charge to fight against stratification and to “equalize” uneven battery cells, which happens over time. Floating charge typically fight against self-discharge of the battery and it is not enough to “stir” the electrolyte to fight against the stratification (S.G. low at the top of the jar and high at the bottom of the jar).  Same for bringing the cells S.G. even: the floating charge voltage setting is not enough to fight against non-uniform specific gravities between the different cells of the battery bank.
>  
> Hope this helps.
>  
> John
>  
> John F. DeBoever
> Global Technical & Projects Director – Renewable Energy
> Trojan Battery Company
>  
> 12380 Clark Street
> Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
> Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
> Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
> Skype: john.f.deboever
> Fax: +1-562-236-3239
> jdeboever at trojanbattery.com
> www.trojanbattery.com
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:36 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
>  
> Although I'm not clear on this, my impression is that when flooded batteries float for long periods of time, the electrolyte stratifies and creates various aging problems, which is why I assume one would want to cycle the batteries at least somewhat on a somewhat regular basis...
>  
> Howie
> --
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>  
> Catamount Solar, LLC
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com
> 802-272-0004
>  
>  
> On Fri, July 13, 2012 12:19 pm, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote:
> > "The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off  the PV's
> > when they are there to get a deep discharge in."
> > 
> > um, why use up battery cycles unnecessarily like this?
> > 
> > todd
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:28am, "Jason Lerner"
> > <wapalco at rockisland.com>
> > said:
> > 
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> 
> >> Hello John,
> >> 
> >> This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come
> >> up once a year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems
> >> generally do not die from over cycling,  but from over/under
> >> watering,  acid stratification, corrosion,  and generally being
> >> ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off the
> >> PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.
> >> 
> >> Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their
> >> battery bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV
> >> charging capability, and float charge 350 days a year. It seems
> >> ironic that these systems that really never get used,  and my battery
> >> bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and cycled daily, will
> >> last the same number of years.
> >> 
> >> Thanks very much,
> >> 
> >> Jason Lerner
> >> 
> >> Waldron Power and Light Co.
> >> 
> >> On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:53 PM, John DeBoever wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Jason, Wrenches,
> >>> 
> >>> Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan
> >>> Battery Company.
> >>> Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time
> >>> with limited access to Internet.
> >>> 
> >>> Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the
> >>> Signature  L16P & L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for
> >>> solar applications. The key differences between them are:
> >>> 
> >>> ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and
> >>> L16RE-B, which effectively reinforces further the frame strength
> >>> which results into a greater corrosion resistance; ü  There is
> >>> relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the
> >>> Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the
> >>> electrochemical reaction, particularly during PSOC; ü  The
> >>> rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for
> >>> the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a
> >>> longer life of the separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps
> >>> over time the acid channels open longer, promoting the flow of the
> >>> electrolyte . As a result, the thicker separator is reducing the
> >>> risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical processing
> >>> throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance
> >>> of the battery.
> >>> ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this
> >>> results into more lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units
> >>> nameplate.
> >>> 
> >>> As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE”
> >>> is
> >>> 1,600 cycles @ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively
> >>> 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and, 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for
> >>> the L16-P & L16-H.
> >>> 
> >>> I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other
> >>> attributes of lead acid batteries.
> >>> 
> >>> Sunniest regards,
> >>> 
> >>> John
> >>> 
> >>> John F. DeBoever
> >>> Global Technical & Projects Director – Renewable Energy Trojan
> >>> Battery Company
> >>> 
> >>> 12380 Clark Street
> >>> Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
> >>> Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
> >>> Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
> >>> Skype: john.f.deboever
> >>> Fax: +1-562-236-3239
> >>> jdeboever at trojanbattery.com
> >>> www.trojanbattery.com
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
> >>> Jason Lerner
> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
> >>> To: RE-wrenches
> >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
> >>> 
> >>> I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none
> >>> seem to last as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the
> >>> technical differences between the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I
> >>> have read all the brochures but would like to understand what is
> >>> going on in there instead of getting the marketing of DuraGridâ„¢,
> >>> MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks very much,
> >>> 
> >>> Jason Lerner
> >>> 
> >>> Waldron Power and Light and Co.
> >>> On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
> >>> Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
> >>> 
> >>> Sierra Solar Systems
> >>> 563C Idaho Maryland Road
> >>> Grass Valley, CA 95945
> >>> Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
> >>> tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
> >>> order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
> >>> e-mail:  <mailto:solarjon at sierrasolar.com> world wide web: 
> >>> <http://www.sierrasolar.com>
> >>> 
> >>> Check out our 2 minute video at:
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s
> >>> that we installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my
> >>> experience. About 60% of the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s
> >>> and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been using those since 1985.
> >>> 
> >>> Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105.
> >>> And have used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good
> >>> success with another set ordered.
> >>> 
> >>> Dave
> >>> 
> >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
> >>> SunHarvest
> >>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
> >>> To: RE-wrenches
> >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
> >>> 
> >>> Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah at 20Hr) as my local rep, "the
> >>> battery expert", was persuasive in his testimony to their
> >>> reliability.
> >>> Should've
> >>> consulted wrenches first.
> >>> 
> >>> Should I be worried??
> >>> 
> >>> Eric Stikes
> >>> SunHarvest Solar
> >>> +1 (530) 798 - 3738
> >>> www.harvesthesun.com
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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