[RE-wrenches] Charge Rate (Hot Trojan Batteries)

Tue Apr 3 07:37:19 PDT 2012

Jeremy,

I would like to share few comments:

o   5 strings in parallel will definitely promote a high probability of unbalanced strings over time, leading to some units "boiling" while others will face sulfatation. 1 to 3 strings in parallel  max would be my recommendation, depending size of load application specifics and maintenance site specifics.  I would always personally try one to max 2 strings in parallel and there will be many reasons for that, too long to expand on for the purpose of this email. Please consider larger Ah battery units.

o   The charge rate of 3.3% of C20 battery capacity is very low, just able to face the self-discharge of the battery on a floating charge mode operation, not any of the site loads usage of the battery. You would need to clarify further when the 3.3% of C20 happen, if at finishing charge or during bulk charge.  I recommend you discuss directly with Trojan Tech Support for further help at http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top

o   The battery most likely were challenged by high sulfatation, resulting in loosing capacity  and generating heat. The units boiling would face corrosion aggression.

I hope this helps,

John
Trojan Battery Company

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, Inc.
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 10:24 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charge Rate (Hot Trojan Batteries)

With 5 strings installed, I figured the charge rate to be about 3.3% (of C20 rate) for 5 years or so. Actually since it was installed in 2002, and now on its second set of batteries.
We added some PV and an MX60 a year ago, and now this.  I think he had heavily sulfated batteries which eventually led to shorted cells. ?
Jeremy
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Szumlanski<mailto:jason at fafcosolar.com>
To: RE-wrenches<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There are a lot of forums and circles where C/20 refers to the capacity divided by 20, or 5% of the battery capacity. This may be the more informal interpretation of the term, but you will find many examples where people consider C/20 to be 5% of the capacity (wrong or right). For example, look at the most frequently accessed deep cycle charging FAQ on the Internet: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

To be clear perhaps we should just use plain English and say "the recommended charging rate is 10-15% of the capacity of the battery at the 20 hour discharge rate."

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:46 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

Wrenches,
I attended John DeBoever's Friday afternoon presentation on battery technology and care at the NABCEP Continuing Education conference this past weekend. It quickly became clear to me that John seriously knows his batteries, at all levels: chemistry, physics, RE use and care, etc. It was an advanced-level presentation, and I learned a lot.

The first thing John told us was that English is not his native language; he's a Belgian raised in South Africa (and more that I didn't catch). He was bursting with knowledge and good information, but occasionally we in his class would back him up to better explain a point.

In short, I think he will be a real asset to the Wrenches list as a manufacturer's representative. And occasionally there will be something confusing, such as what just happened here. I too wondered about C20 versus C/20. I appreciate that he quickly cleared up the confusion, and look forward to learning quite a bit from his posts about battery issues.
Allan
Allan Sindelar
Allan at positiveenergysolar.com<mailto:Allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com<http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>

On 4/2/2012 11:00 AM, John DeBoever wrote:
Jason, Wrenches,

C/20 means C over 20 hours discharge rate = capacity @ the 20 hours discharge rate. C/20 often is mentioned as C20, so the confusion here.
Max recommended is 10& to 15% of C20 of the battery bank.

John
Trojan Battery Company

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There must be some confusion here about the charging rate. C/20 refers to capacity divided by 20, so in the case of a 325aH battery (capacity @ the 20 hour discharge rate) we're talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I'm sure John is not referring to a maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 10-15% of the 325aH capacity.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of John DeBoever
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM
To: allsolar at scswifi.net<mailto:allsolar at scswifi.net>; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

Jeremy, Wrenches,

165°F is definitely too high and you should stop immediately any charge to avoid further major problems. I recommend you contact our Trojan Tech Support for help at http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top

Below are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:

o   System issues:

*  Check Charger setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and will damage the battery. The maximum recommended current rate is 10-15% of C/20 for a deep-cycle flooded lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible but are application specific and not typical.

*  Check Voltage settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html

*  Check Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above 77°F (add 0.028 VPC for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for every 10°F above 77°F. See here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf

*  Check Voltage sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is recommended

*  Check temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically in the middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.

*  Check if air circulation between the battery units.

*  Check if adequate air ventilation of the battery room.

o   Battery issues:

*  C/20 charging rate is too high (see above)

*  How old are the batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that will decrease the battery turnaround efficiency over time that translates in higher temperature generation. Typically the battery temperature range is about 20oF above ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F to 113°F.

See here: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf

165°F is way too high and will damage the units

*  Maybe you are facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it will quickly indicate if a unit is shorted.  Shorted units will generate heat and will jeopardize the charging of other units. Remove shorted units and consult tech support your charger supplier if possible to reconfigure of your battery bank with fewer units, configured at a lower battery bank voltage, using same voltage settings recommended by Trojan Battery Company.  Typically 1 to 3 units less would be acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer settings.

*  Maybe you are facing sulfated batteries, resulting from low charging, thus resulting in lower overall turnaround efficiency. This will heat some healthier units of the battery bank, accelerating corrosion damages. The max temperature acceptable being 113°F, please consult Trojan Tech Support: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top

*  Please deal directly off-Wrenches list, with Trojan Tech Support for better fine tune resolution: http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top

I hope this help,

John
John F. DeBoever
Global Technical Director - Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company

12380 Clark Street
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
jdeboever at trojanbattery.com<mailto:jdeboever at trojanbattery.com>
www.trojanbattery.com<http://www.trojanbattery.com/>

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of allsolar at scswifi.net<mailto:allsolar at scswifi.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:20 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

Wrenches,

Can anyone explain why an L16 bank would be at 165F at rest.  Over a C20 charge rate, but I have a feeling there might be an internal short

Jeremy

All Solar

Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

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