[RE-wrenches] DC GEC Sizing Issue - Water Main GE

[Dave Click]

Garrison,

In this case, the "largest conductor supplied by the system" is quoted 
from 250.166(B) and note that "the system" refers to the "dc system":

**
250.166 Size of the Direct-Current Grounding Electrode Conductor. The 
size of the grounding electrode conductor for a *dc system* shall be as 
specified in 250.166(A) and (B), except as permitted by 250.166(C) 
through (E).

(B) Not Smaller Than the Largest Conductor. Where the *dc system* is 
other than as in 250.166(A), the grounding electrode conductor shall not 
be smaller than the largest conductor supplied by the system, and not 
smaller than 8 AWG copper or 6 AWG aluminum.
**

As for the suitability of a water pipe as a "pipe electrode" it's not 
something I've done personally. After further research it seems like the 
water pipe probably fits not as 250.52(A)(5) but as (A)(1). So if you're 
going to building steel or a water pipe, 250.166(B) is applicable and so 
8 AWG Cu should be acceptable for this connection.

Hope that clarifies!
DKC

On 2012/7/23 13:27, Garrison Riegel wrote:
> Hi Dave (and all)
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> I appreciate your perspective and hope the AHJ will accept the logic that
> the "largest conductor supplied by the system" is limited to the PV system.
> Would you say the "system" stops at the first inverter output circuit OCPD?
> In this design we have #10 PV output circuit conductors to each inverter,
> and then #8 inverter output conductors to a 40A breaker in a dedicated
> subpanel.  This panel has a 250A MB and 250kcmil cables to the MDP.
>
> So...is the #8 the largest conductor in this system, or would it be the
> 250kcmil since it is a dedicated inverter panel?
>
> Also, you note that 250.166(B) doesn't apply.  It is my understanding that a
> water main is not considered a "pipe electrode" as in 250.52(A)(5), so the
> #6 maximum GEC size unfortunately does not apply here, and we're back to the
> "largest conductor supplied by the system."  Have you been able to argue
> that the water pipe is in fact a pipe?  It seems logical, but sometimes
> logic just doesn't seem to matter.
>
> To note, the City of Chicago is back in the stone age (1999 NEC), and
> requires the GEC to be run independently and in metal conduit.  That said
> they have been known to allow certain exceptions if it meets the latest NEC
> cycle (and they are in a good mood).
>
> Thank you again for your time and knowledge.  It is much appreciated.
>
> Garrison
>
> Garrison Riegel
> Project Manager
>
> Solar Service Inc
> [p] 847-677-0950
> [f] 847-647-9360
> www.solarserviceinc.com
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal InstallerT
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Click
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:23 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC GEC Sizing Issue - Water Main GE
>
> Garrison,
>
> If you're doing a small commercial grid-tie system, your inverter GEC
> requirements are determined not by the service size but by your
> inverter. To illustrate, if you were installing a single Enphase,
> running an unspliced #3/0 copper wire from your pipe up to your inverter
> would be overkill, right? 690.47(B) is for systems with DC requirements
> only (e.g. small inverter-free stand-alone systems).
>
> If you're on the 2011 NEC, the simplest way to do this is to run a
> combination EGC/GEC from the inverter GEC terminal *unspliced* through
> your AC conduit to the ground bus of your interconnection panelboard,
> sizing it to meet DC GEC and AC EGC requirements. If you're on the 2008
> and your inspector won't allow you to use the 2011 method, you'd run and
> size your AC EGC as you normally would. For your GEC you would size that
> based off the larger of 250.66 or 250.166, and note that 250.166(B)
> doesn't apply since you have a pipe electrode (250.166(C) overrides
> 166(B)). So you can get away with a #6 copper GEC unspliced from your
> inverter to your pipe. Run that GEC in PVC conduit if you can, but if
> the site requires you to use metal, you'll need to bond both ends.
>
> To answer your questions:
> 1. Per 2008, you'll size the GEC per 250.66 and 250.166, and the .166
> requirement will likely win out. Per 2011, you'll size your combined
> EGC/GEC as no smaller than 250.122 or 250.166.
>
> 2 & 3. "Largest conductor" applies to the largest conductor in the PV
> system (likely your homerun DC).
>
> Dave
>
> On 2012/7/20 15:06, Garrison Riegel wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> I have GEC sizing issue and would greatly appreciate any advice you can
>> share...
>>
>
>
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