[RE-wrenches] National grid hertz adjustment

Mon Jun 27 12:26:04 PDT 2011

Dan, I think we're only looking at an error of 20 minutes per (8760 hrs 
x 60 min / hr) = 0.00381%, well within the frequency drift allowed under 
UL 1741. So as you point out, it would only be the shorter excursions 
away from 60.0Hz that would be the issue. This shift isn't the easiest 
thing in the world to do (and then maintain)!

On 2011/6/27 15:08, Exeltech wrote:
> A max of 20 minutes error per year (as stated in the article)
> equates to an error of 0.228%.
>
> Whether grid-tied inverters stay on line or not depends on
> the ultimate range of the frequency excursions permitted
> during the tests. UL1741 limits are 59.3 to 60.5 Hz for
> fixed frequency settings. The cumulative error shown
> above is well within those bounds. 59.3 Hz = -1.16%;
> 60.5 Hz is +0.83%.
>
> However, I could see cases where they may allow 60.6 Hz
> one day and 59.4 Hz the next. The overall net difference
> would be zero for a frequency-dependent clock - but a
> grid-tied inverter would spend the first day of this example
> totally offline.
>
> This would have to be a grid-wide frequency difference,
> else they'd end up with some seriously large power flows
> from one part of the grid to another, with potentially disastrous
> results.
>
> It will be interesting to see how they handle this.
>
> Thanks for the post.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 6/26/11, bob ellison /<reellison at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>
>     From: bob ellison <reellison at gmail.com>
>     Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] National grid hertz adjustment
>     To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>     Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 6:40 PM
>
>     This will make it interesting to everybody with a grid tie inverter,
>     can we open up the specs to let them work with the “new test
>     variation”? The other option is that the inverters will spend a lot
>     more time off line.
>
>     Bob Ellison
>
>     *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>     [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
>     *Roy Butler
>     *Sent:* Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:45 PM
>     *To:* RE-wrenches
>     *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] National grid hertz adjustment
>
>     I saw this as well, came over the AP news wire on Friday, June 24th.
>     I've been trying to figure out what they hope to gain by allowing more
>     frequency variation.....puzzling at best!
>
>     Roy Butler
>
>     NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
>
>     NYSERDA eligible PV&  wind installer
>
>     Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
>
>     8902 Route 46
>
>     Arkport, NY 14807
>
>     607-324-9747
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>
>
>     www.four-winds-energy.com  <http://www.four-winds-energy.com>
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>
>
>     Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
>
>     a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     On 6/26/2011 1:31 PM, North Texas Renewable Energy Inc wrote:
>
>     This article in the local paper sounds a little like potential
>     trouble for grid connected inverters. I looked around on the NERC
>     www site without finding the report mentioned. Any other wrenches
>     seen anything about this experiment?
>
>     Jim Duncan
>
>     By Seth Borenstein The Associated Press
>
>         WASHINGTON -- A yearlong experiment with the nation's electric
>         grid could mess up traffic lights, security systems and some
>         computers -- and make plug-in clocks and appliances like
>         programmable coffee makers run up to 20 minutes fast.
>
>         "A lot of people are going to have things break, and they're not
>         going to know why," said Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time
>         service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, one of two
>         official timekeeping agencies in the federal government.
>
>         Since 1930, electric clocks have kept time based on the rate of
>         the electrical current that powers them. If the current slips
>         off its usual rate, clocks run a little fast or slow.
>
>         Power companies now take steps to correct it, keeping the
>         frequency of the current as precise as possible.
>
>         The North American Electric Reliability Corp., which oversees
>         the U.S. power grid, is proposing an experiment that would allow
>         more frequency variation without corrections, according to a
>         June 14 company presentation obtained by The Associated Press.
>
>         The test is tentatively set to start in mid-July.
>
>         Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot
>         of effort, said Joe McClelland, head of electric reliability for
>         the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
>
>         "Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?" McClelland
>         said. "Let's see if anyone complains if we eliminate it."
>
>         No one is quite sure what will be affected. This won't change
>         the clocks in cellphones, GPS or even on computers.
>
>         But wall clocks and those on ovens and coffee makers -- anything
>         that flashes "12:00" when it loses power -- may be a bit off
>         every second, and that error can grow with time.
>
>         VCRs or DVRs that get their time from cable systems or the
>         Internet probably won't be affected, but those with clocks tied
>         to the electric current will be off a bit, Matsakis said.
>
>         According to the June presentation, East Coast clocks may run up
>         to 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only
>         likely to be off by eight minutes. In Texas, it's only an
>         expected speedup of two minutes.
>
>
>         Read more:
>         http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/24/3178359/test-of-electric-grid-could-be.html#ixzz1QOzHwezw
>
>
>         <http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/24/3178359/test-of-electric-grid-could-be.html#ixzz1QOzHwezw>
>
>
>
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