[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

Mon Jan 31 10:33:15 PST 2011

Well, 

I thought we were talking about getting into bed with roofers. If we are
talking about DIYers, here is my two cents worth.

Just so boB and Warren don’t appear to be a couple of voices in the
wild(erness). I personally do not know of a single PV integrator who would
work with a DIYer. The reasons for walking away from this kind of business
are so numerous, I will list only the first fourteen:

(1) A DIYer looking for some help in installing a PV system, might be
looking to avoid pulling a permit, or
(2) Expects to pull a permit as an owner-builder, or
(3) Wants you to pull the permit
(4) Doesn’t think we need to perform a site survey, because he got on the
roof a couple of weeks ago and everything will fit and there was no shading.
(5) Wants you to fill out the rebate paperwork (and not pay for the effort)
(6) Doesn’t want to pay for engineering either (what do you mean we can’t
use the 500 ft of #14 THHN wire I bought?) 
(7) Or for that matter permit documentation (you want $250 to draw up a
permit package! That’s outrageous!)
(8) Wants the installer to carry the warranty for the stuff his brother
bought on the internet from PVPartsForSale
(9) Isn’t 100% sure exactly what came in the “kit”
(10)  Wants the installer to bid on the project based on a PowerPoint layout
he did for the modules (What do you mean I have to know the rafter spacing
and orientation? I assumed you would cut those "black plastic pipes" vents
flush with the roof. Don’t worry I’ll move the satellite dish!)
(11)  Wants to do “a little of the work himself on the weekends” (Like
running some conduit through the attic). 
(12)  Wants the installer to vouch for the fact that the PV modules were
purchased “new” even though there is a fine layer of dirt everywhere on the
panels even in the rain channels, and some of the panels have wire clips
installed on the backside.
(13)  Doesn’t know anything about his service panel, or whether or not he
had a code compliant grounding system, and is not sure what kind of roof he
has (I think it’s “tile”) or what condition it’s in
(14) And he has done a little unpermitted electrical work in the past, but
that shouldn’t be a problem should it?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

________________________________________
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren
Lauzon
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation methods

I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their
“complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit 

Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid
along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225
watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt
6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries...

It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of
years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when
they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to
pay for the phone call.

From: toddcory at finestplanet.com 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods

I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a
"bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could
get a end of the year tax break". He wanted me to come and install it for
him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the
low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell
or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help
him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad
the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of
situations.

Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct.

Todd

On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
said:
I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective
equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment
DT

________________________________________
From: boB Gudgel <boB at midnitesolar.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods

On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: 
Joel,

Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help
the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. 
We get  a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their
systems.  It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such
ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of
other hassles.  This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush
where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it
did to the industry.

Respectfully, 

I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start
installing roofs, too !!

boB

Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 

"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net wrote:

From: Joel Davidson mailto:joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
To: "RE-wrenches" mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers'
bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups
and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their
design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and
grunt work).
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Warren Lauzon 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation methods

We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of
solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and
they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as
bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring
down to the inverter, and not in conduit.

From: Nick Soleil 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation
methods

Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell
solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered. 
Listen to this neat story.
   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that
the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer
decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any
attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
    Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not
operating, and called us to the site.  

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 

Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
________________________________________
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Online Solar Store
Free Solar Discussion Forum
--------------------------------------------------------------------