[RE-wrenches] Xslent?
Dave Click
daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu
Mon Jan 10 09:26:40 PST 2011
Standard residential utility meters couldn't care less about power
factor and will ignore reactive power. Additional utility bill savings
by using these reactive-capable microinverters is $0.
Dan brought up a good point that adding too much capacitance also hurts
power factor- so even if a utility did start caring about residential
power factor, they wouldn't want these devices on every house because
then their feeders would become excessively capacitive when motors
weren't running. IMHO reactive power from these devices only makes sense
if it's configurable and dispatchable by either the utility or a
building's energy management system. And it doesn't seem to be.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
From: Mark Frye <markf at berkeleysolar.com>
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2011/1/10 12:14
> SMA now delivers large inverters that provide several options for power
> factor correction provided by the output of the inverter.
> So we are not talking about the viability of the technology. There may
> still be a question of how well the technology is implemented in this
> particular microinverter.
> The main question here is the efficacy of claims of an advantage for
> small residential customers such that reduced PV array sizes deliver
> equivalent energy as metered by the local utility.
> Having followed the the whole power factor correction device discussion,
> I still have some question in my mind as to the resolution of the
> question of whether or not standard residential utility meters will
> measure and accure a credit for improved power factor.
>
> Mark Frye
> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
> 303 Redbud Way
> Nevada City, CA 95959
> (530) 401-8024
> _www.berkeleysolar.com_ <http://www.berkeleysolar.com/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Exeltech
> *Sent:* Monday, January 10, 2011 8:59 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
>
> By the way, in answer to answer your original question, capacitors of
> proper value, when installed in a circuit containing inductive loads,
> are capable of allowing the circuit to attain a power factor of 1.0. As
> part of our Underwriter's Laboratories testing for our grid-tied
> inverters, a test fixture is used that's capable of both inductive and
> capacitive reactance (it's part of the anti-islanding tests). I've
> witnessed the power factor being adjusted from 0.7 leading and lagging
> to an absolute perfect 1.0000 (yes, four decimals). It's all done by
> varying the value of capacitance in the circuit. Thus, if one were to
> use lab-grade test equipment, and take the time needed to make such a
> precision adjustment, it's possible to achieve absolute unity in an
> inductive circuit by "tuning" it with a capacitive circuit.
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
> /<ntrei at 1scom.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: North Texas Renewable Energy Inc <ntrei at 1scom.net>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 8:29 AM
>
>
> How efficient is a capacitor in offsetting the power factor error?
> 99.9%...±2%...?
> Jim Duncan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of
> *Exeltech
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:03 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
>
> --- On Fri, 1/7/11, Peter Parrish
> <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote:
>
> > What ever is done to reduce the reative power, it has to be done
>
> > in real time (with a fraction of 0.016 seconds, the 60 Hz cycle).
>
> > You can’t wait until later in the evening to solve a problem that
>
> > is occuring during the day.
>
>
> Peter is absolutely correct. Power factor correction MUST occur
> on a half-cycle by half-cycle basis, and at the exact moment of
> power consumption by the reactive load. Anything else won't be
> effective, and may in fact worsen the power factor at a given
> point in the grid.
>
>
> > Real time compensation can be often done with capacitors alone
>
> > or in conjuction with some smart electronics. Remember that for
>
> > short periods of time capacitors can store considerable amounts
>
> > of energy and can smooth out these reactive currents.
>
>
> Capacitors placed across a power line will store energy for
> exactly one-half cycle. At that point, the polarity reverses,
> the capacitor is discharged to to zero, then recharged to the
> opposite polarity. This process repeats every cycle.
>
> What DOES take place is a phase shift (displacement) in the
> current flow relative to the voltage waveform. Power factor
> correction is done with capacitor banks (we see them in
> substations and on power poles) to offset the power factor of
> the grid itself, which by its design is inherently inductive due
> to long runs of wire. Very large motors will have individual
> "tuning" capacitors installed to offset inductive reactive
> current flow. These capacitors are disconnected whenever the
> respective motor to which they're connected is not in use. On
> occasion, excessive capacitance exists in a circuit that must be
> offset by inductance, but this is rare.
>
>
> Like Tom Cruise said in Top Gun .. "It's complicated."
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 1/7/11, Peter Parrish
> /<peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Peter Parrish <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Friday, January 7, 2011, 5:39 PM
>
> I know only a little about Power Factor “charges”, but we
> can figure out some other “engineering” issues.
>
> Power Factor is a measure of the amount of reactive
> (out-of-phase) power compared to real (in-phase) power. It
> is somewhat complicated but the PF is unity for 100% in
> phase and 0 for 100% out-of-phase power.
>
> The important thing to remember is that (while holding the
> real power constant) for PFs less than unity there is in
> addition to the real power, and “in-flow” of power and an
> “outflow” of power four times a cycle. One might say, “Why
> do I care about reactive power? It flows in and out with no
> net contribution over the long run!). True, but the in-flow
> and out-flow represents higher currents on the lines and
> morelosses. Or it means that there have to be oversized
> service conductors to avoid the extra losses. Even if the
> losses are avoided, the higher currents can trip overcurrent
> protection devices, and of course the utility company needs
> to supply (and take back) the extra currents in real time.
>
> What ever is done to reduce the reative power, it has to be
> done in real time (with a fraction of 0.016 seconds, the 60
> Hz cycle). You can’t wait until later in the evening to
> solve a problem that is occuring during the day.
>
> Real time compensation can be often done with capacitors
> alone or in conjuction with some smart electronics. Remember
> that for short periods of time capacitors can store
> considerable amounts of energy and can smooth out these
> reactive currents.
>
> I can well imagine how an inverter can be designed to
> generate both real and reactive power, and therfore an
> inverter can reduce the amount of reactive power that needs
> to be supplied by the utility company – but not when the sun
> isn’t shining. I suspect that these types of inverters will
> have oversized output circuit wiring to handle the reactive
> currents without adversely impacting their efficiency rating.
>
> If I have time this weekend, I will take a look at
> Apparent’s website.
>
> - Peter
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave. , Los Angeles , CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jamie Johnson
> *Sent:* Friday, January 07, 2011 2:03 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
>
> It's an interesting product for a niche market if it
> actually works as they say (Disclaimer:I am not claiming
> that it does), after speaking with an individual who I
> believe is the VP of Production for Apparent (use to work
> for EnPhase according to their website), he claims that the
> product is currently installed at the Google campus on a
> solar canopy for some of their EV chargers (can anyone
> verify this?)
>
> They have several other beta installs as well, however the
> individual I spoke to said they were only installing small
> systems at beta test sites (where the Util co charges for
> VAR's using separate meters like for EV charging) for now.
> No pricing has been set for the inverters, and they are not
> available for sale to installers yet.
>
> Apparently they claim the inverter can create/produce VAR's
> by taking 1 watt of power from the grid at night or from the
> solar output during the day and turning it into
> approximately 9 VAR's to offset the customers charges for
> VAR usage from the Grid. This is where the KVAh production
> on the graph before sunrise and after sunset comes from.
>
> I still would need to see a third party head to head
> comparison test before I believed it. Again niche market
> inverter for when the utility co charges for VAR's.
>
> Jamie
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
> From: August Goers <august at luminalt.com>
> Date: Fri, January 07, 2011 10:24 am
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> Hi All -
>
> Thanks for the helpful info! We did a little more
> research on our end and
> I guess Apparent is the new brand name for the Xslent
> product. What
> baffles me is the chart where they show that they're
> producing power
> before and after sunrise and sunset:
>
> http://www.apparent.com/products/mgi.html
>
> The system must include batteries? Someone on their
> marketing team is
> really going to town...
>
> Best, August
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of jay peltz
> Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:43 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
>
> HI Peter,
>
> I agree with you that for now on residential it makes no
> sense.
> However for commercial that might have to pay extra for
> PF issues, to have
> the inverter adjust for this makes sense.
> Its the reason they( inverter companies ) are doing it.
> I"ve heard a better more complete reason of course from
> Bill Brooks, who
> maybe can chime in.
>
> sorry got away from me,
>
>
> jay
> peltz power
> On Jan 6, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Peter Parrish wrote:
>
> > I can't understand how any inverter WOULDN'T deliver
> its power with the
> > voltage and current 100% IN PHASE.
> >
> > When the voltage and current are not 100% in-phase
> that represents
> reactive
> > power. Reactive power flows positive for a quarter of
> the AC cycle, then
> > negative for a quarter of a cycle, then positive and
> then negative. The
> net
> > result over one AC cycle is ZERO power delivered to
> the load.
> >
> > So reactive power is worthless.
> >
> > Worse, it results in higher currents (and voltages)
> for the same amount
> of
> > in-phase power, putting additional stress on circuits.
> >
> > - Peter
> >
> >
> > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> > California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> > 820 Cynthia Ave. , Los Angeles , CA 90065
> > CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
> > Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> </mc/compose?to=RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options& settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules& etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
More information about the RE-wrenches
mailing list