[RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 4, Issue 41
lars Ortegren
lars at cal-solar.com
Mon Jan 31 08:07:01 PST 2011
Lars Ortegren
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518
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Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 4, Issue 41
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation
methods (Keith Cronin)
2. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation
methods (Keith Cronin)
3. Re: Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation
methods (Joel Davidson)
4. Off grid Trace 2024 off grid w/ Sunny Boy new Installation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:04:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Keith Cronin <electrichi01 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
Message-ID: <477749.14898.qm at web113420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ray
Good points.
Clarification: I wasn't suggesting any of us become responsible for every
electrical issues on the property, but that we offer a home electrical
inspection to point out the deficiencies.
The client can decide whether or not to do the work that we've discovered
needs
upgrading. At the very least, they are informed. In a competitive solar
environment, it allows you
to be the different integrator- one that is showing the full menu of
services
and focuses on safety and prudence.
Its like when you bring your service van in to the dealership. They do the
basic
items, then throw it on the computer and tell you, you need "X" work done.
Or as
they're doing the visual
inspection, they notice "X" needs to be replaced. We the customer, at that
juncture, are informed and can decide whether or not we'd like to proceed.
But
at least we know and its
been brought to our attention.
So, yes- if you want to draw a clear line, you can. One proposal for the PV
and
one for the remediation work. At least they have choices and information
that
perhaps they weren't aware of before.
By taking some digital pics of the overloaded jbox, for example, they now
have
visual cues as to make decisions about their homes electrical
infrastructure. If
someone is investing thousands
of dollars in a PV system, doing some remedial work seems prudent. Sometimes
homeowners haven't had an electrician in their homes for years and aren't
even
aware they have a hazard lurking
in the shadows. You never know, you might or could get a whole house rewire
out
of the PV job!
________________________________
From: R Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 8:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
methods
Keith;
I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that
you
then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be
hidden
in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar,
everything else is their problem.
I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make
the
solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and
grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not
touching,
unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause
enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you
will
cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just
to
the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans
o'
worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)
R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer
On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Folks.....
>
>
>To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show
at
>our local convention center.
>New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no
>different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar
>installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like
roofing.
>
>
>Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be
>providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its
even
>available.
>If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services
that
>others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary.
>
>
>I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did
this
>week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly
overlook
>other value added services which could benefit the customer.
>Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited
to
>see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
>
>
>1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the
clients
>pool.
>2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and
>interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an
emergency.
>3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the
client.
>4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to
happen-
>doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
>5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed
into
>the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
>6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner
plug
>and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning
over
>to pull it out.
>7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and
save $
>on the utility bill.
>8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator
outside.
>This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born
on
>date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my
>Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming.
>Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one.
Client
>has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this
>sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
>9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room
for a
>mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy
the
>code/cord situation.
>10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and
there
>were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12
circuits in
>it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so
I
>recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has
reached
>its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel.
>
>
>I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection
to
>identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value
to
>the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to
other
>things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all
>doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and
offer
>something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction.
When
>we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name
gets
>elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about
their
>experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities
will
>do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers,
upon
>completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show
the
>system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).
>
>
>Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as
it
>has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone
who
>might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People
tend to
>remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It
also
>means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the
>competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their
current
>situation and a step by step way to get there, together.
>
>
>Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler
plate
>questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your
>company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your
>services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or
at
>least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with
people
>they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker,
as
>they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on
their
>contracts words.
>
>
>If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer
girl
>scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective
>customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what
they've
>heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can
we
>deliver on their needs.
>
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>methods
>
>
>Hi Joel:
> For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would
install
>the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would
sell.
>I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of
a
>specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar
installations
>will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even
roofing
>contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.)
> However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often
referred,
>are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my
>competitors. They have that right.
> My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a
quality
>installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where
the
>modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the
>roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be
able
>to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the
>safety of PV system owners and their neighbors.
>
> Nick Soleil
>Project Manager
>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>PO Box 657
>Petaluma, CA 94953
>Cell: 707-321-2937
>Office: 707-789-9537
>Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>methods
>
>
>Andrew,
>
>Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the
1970s,
>but that's not a wrenches subject.
>
>Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc.
Some
>of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You
don't
>have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't
like.
>But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not
work
>with others.
> Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out
structural
>engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.?
Then
>what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can
>control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control?
>There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like
to
>have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer.
You
>know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that
portion
>of your work. So what's the hassle?
>
>Joel Davidson
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Solar Energy Solutions
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>methods
>>
>>
>>Joel,
>>
>>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help
the
>>unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We
get
>>a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their
systems. It
>>is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures
unprofitable,
>>they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This
whole
>>thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of
systems
>>were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
>>President
>>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
>>Since 1987,
>>Moving Portland and Beyond
>>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
>>503-238-4502
>>www.solarenergyoregon.com
>>
>>"Better one's House too little one day
>>than too big all the Year after."
>>
>>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>>>methods
>>>To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Guys,
>>>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about
roofers' bad
>>>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups
and your
>>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design
and
>>>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
>>>Joel Davidson
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Warren Lauzon
>>>>To: RE-wrenches
>>>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>>>methods
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of
solar
>>>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and
they were
>>>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as
your
>>>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to
the
>>>>inverter, and not in conduit.
>>>>
>>>>From: Nick Soleil
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>>>To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>>>methods
>>>> Hi wrenches:
>>>> Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to
sell
>>>>solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered.
Listen to
>>>>this neat story.
>>>> I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed
and
>>>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is
that the
>>>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer
decided to
>>>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments
to the
>>>>structure. They didn't think it was necessary!
>>>> Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
>>>>connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not
>>>>operating, and called us to the site.
>>>>
>>>> Nick Soleil
>>>>Project Manager
>>>>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>>>>PO Box 657
>>>>Petaluma, CA 94953
>>>>Cell: 707-321-2937
>>>>Office: 707-789-9537
>>>>Fax: 707-769-9037
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
_______________________________________________
>>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Online Solar Store
>>>>Free Solar Discussion Forum
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
________________________________
_______________________________________________
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________________________________
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:51:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Keith Cronin <electrichi01 at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
Message-ID: <964461.29641.qm at web113407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Nick and everyone.....
Yes and Yes.
Our contract is a 3 part NCR form. Our flat rate price book has 82 pages of
tasks for our electrical services and labeling the panel is one of them.
If you, or anyone is interested in getting a sample of our book, contact me
off
list.
________________________________
From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:57:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
methods
Hi Kieth:
Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly,
that
should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want
to
see that the panels are labelled at final inspection.
I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
________________________________
From: R Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
methods
Keith;
I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that
you
then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be
hidden
in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar,
everything else is their problem.
I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make
the
solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and
grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not
touching,
unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause
enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you
will cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just
to
the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans
o'
worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)
R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer
On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Folks.....
>
>
>To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show
at
>our local convention center.
>New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no
>different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar
>installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like
roofing.
>
>
>Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be
>providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its
even
>available.
>If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services
that
>others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but
necessary.
>
>
>I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did
this
>week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly
overlook
>other value added services which could benefit the customer.
>Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited
to
>see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
>
>
>1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the
clients
>pool.
>2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and
>interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an
emergency.
>3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the
client.
>4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to
happen-
>doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
>5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed
into
>the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
>6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner
plug
>and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning
over
>to pull it out.
>7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and
save $
>on the utility bill.
>8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator
outside.
>This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born
on
>date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my
>Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming.
>Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one.
Client
>has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this
>sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
>9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room
for a
>mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy
the
>code/cord situation.
>10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and
there
>were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12
circuits in
>it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so
I
>recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has
reached
>its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel.
>
>
>I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection
to
>identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value
to
>the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to
other
>things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all
>doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and
>offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a
transaction.
>When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones
name
>gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other
about
>their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some
entities
>will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your
customers,
>upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to
show
>the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).
>
>
>Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as
it
>has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone
who
>might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People
tend to
>remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It
also
>means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the
>competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their
current
>situation and a step by step way to get there, together.
>
>
>Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler
plate
>questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your
>company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your
>services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or
at
>least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with
people
>they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker,
as
>they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on
their
>contracts words.
>
>
>If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer
girl
>scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective
>customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what
they've
>heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can
we
>deliver on their needs.
>
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>methods
>
>
>Hi Joel:
> For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would
install
>the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would
sell.
>I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of
a
>specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar
installations
>will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even
>roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.)
> However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often
referred,
>are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my
>competitors. They have that right.
> My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a
quality
>installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where
the
>modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the
>roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be
able
>to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the
>safety of PV system owners and their neighbors.
>
> Nick Soleil
>Project Manager
>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>PO Box 657
>Petaluma, CA 94953
>Cell: 707-321-2937
>Office: 707-789-9537
>Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>methods
>
>
>Andrew,
>
>Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the
1970s,
>but that's not a wrenches subject.
>
>Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc.
Some
>of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You
don't
>have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't
like.
>But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not
work
>with others.
> Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out
structural
>engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.?
Then
>what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can
>control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control?
>There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like
to
>have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer.
You
>know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that
portion
>of your work. So what's the hassle?
>
>Joel Davidson
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Solar Energy Solutions
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>methods
>>
>>
>>Joel,
>>
>>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help
the
>>unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We
get
>>a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their
systems. It
>>is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures
unprofitable,
>>they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This
whole
>>thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of
systems
>>were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
>>President
>>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
>>Since 1987,
>>Moving Portland and Beyond
>>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
>>503-238-4502
>>www.solarenergyoregon.com
>>
>>"Better one's House too little one day
>>than too big all the Year after."
>>
>>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation
>>>methods
>>>To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Guys,
>>>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about
roofers' bad
>>>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups
and your
>>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design
and
>>>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
>>>Joel Davidson
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Warren Lauzon
>>>>To: RE-wrenches
>>>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>>>methods
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of
solar
>>>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and
they were
>>>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as
your
>>>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to
the
>>>>inverter, and not in conduit.
>>>>
>>>>From: Nick Soleil
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>>>To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation
>>>>methods
>>>> Hi wrenches:
>>>> Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to
sell
>>>>solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered.
Listen to
>>>>this neat story.
>>>> I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed
and
>>>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is
that the
>>>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer
decided to
>>>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments
to the
>>>>structure. They didn't think it was necessary!
>>>> Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
>>>>connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not
>>>>operating, and called us to the site.
>>>>
>>>> Nick Soleil
>>>>Project Manager
>>>>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>>>>PO Box 657
>>>>Petaluma, CA 94953
>>>>Cell: 707-321-2937
>>>>Office: 707-789-9537
>>>>Fax: 707-769-9037
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
_______________________________________________
>>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>>>
>>>>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>Options & settings:
>>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>>
>>>>List rules & etiquette:
>>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>
>>>>Check out participant bios:
>>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Online Solar Store
>>>>Free Solar Discussion Forum
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
________________________________
_______________________________________________
>>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>>>
>>>>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>Options & settings:
>>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>>
>>>>List rules & etiquette:
>>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>
>>>>Check out participant bios:
>>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>>
>>>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>Options & settings:
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>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>Check out participant bios:
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>>
>>
>>
________________________________
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
>>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>Options & settings:
>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>>
>>List rules & etiquette:
>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>>Check out participant bios:
>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Options & settings:
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:42:32 -0800
From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
Message-ID: <7C4AFF0E8841403AB8F174297CE75DE7 at JOEL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Learn from insurance companies who have become experts at wording contracts
that excluse pre-existing conditions.
See http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/pre-existing-condition/ and lots of
other info on the WWW.
----- Original Message -----
From: R Ray Walters
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation methods
Keith;
I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is
that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be
hidden in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar,
everything else is their problem.
I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and
make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service
issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not
touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can
cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back
in you will cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just
to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans
o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)
R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer
On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Folks.....
To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade
show at our local convention center.
New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no
different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar
installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like
roofing.
Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be
providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its
even available.
If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench
services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous,
but necessary.
I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I
did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to
flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the
customer.
Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was
invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the
clients pool.
2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home
and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an
emergency.
3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the
client.
4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to
happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed
into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum
cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead
of leaning over to pull it out.
7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's
and save $ on the utility bill.
8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator
outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked
the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means.
Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was
consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy
efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but
at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room
for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to
remedy the code/cord situation.
10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and
there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12
circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and
capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the
feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to
the main panel.
I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home
inspection to identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure
and add value to the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking
a front seat to other things. In a competitive environment, that we are all
in now, if we are all doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the
winner. When we add and offer something else to the relationship, we have
more than just a transaction. When we all take the steps to raise the bar,
others will follow. Everyones name gets elevated, brand awareness wise and
consumers will talk to each other about their experiences and the
value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will do the minimum,
as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon completion
of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the system
in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).
Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges,
as it has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with
someone who might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions.
People tend to remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals
as a result. It also means going into this type of relationship, delicately.
I've not bashed the competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a
solution to their current situation and a step by step way to get there,
together.
Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler
plate questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and
your company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market
your services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project,
or at least this has been my road to success. People want to do business
with people they like and trust and price might not always be the final
decision maker, as they really want a company that will follow the golden
rule and execute on their contracts words.
If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can
offer girl scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your
prospective customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want
or what they've heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs
first. Then can we deliver on their needs.
Keith
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
Hi Joel:
For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would
install the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they
would sell. I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less
and less of a specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that
solar installations will be installed largely by electricians, general
contractors, and even roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate
licensing.)
However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often
referred, are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming
my competitors. They have that right.
My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a
quality installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this
week, where the modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without
attachments, is that the roofing attachments is the aspect of the project
that the roofer should be able to do best, but they skipped that step. That
gives me some concern for the safety of PV system owners and their
neighbors.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
Andrew,
Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in
the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject.
Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment,
etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or
two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy
equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy
industry who does not work with others.
Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out
structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting,
crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other
guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever
you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service
area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have
good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin
you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle?
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: Solar Energy Solutions
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation methods
Joel,
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.
When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv
businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to
install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only
are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a
plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar
Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the
damage it did to the industry.
Respectfully,
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."
--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =
creative, new installation methods
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining
about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of
their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then
offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales,
roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: Warren Lauzon
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =
creative,new installation methods
We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around
the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs
personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or
reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used
Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit.
From: Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =
creative,new installation methods
Hi wrenches:
Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently
been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had
never considered. Listen to this neat story.
I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company
recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.
The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so
he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition
roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was
necessary!
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a
MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system
was not operating, and called us to the site.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Wrenches:
A few years ago our company set up an A/C coupled micro grid using a
quad stack of Outback 3648, with 2 SB6000 inverters tied to the output side
of the Outbacks. It worked marvelously, using the grid tied inverters to
push the current through the output terminals until the bulk battery voltage
is reached, then they are disconnected with relays to prevent overcharging.
Both this system and the design I'm working n are supplying power to
commercial woodshops that require generators, therefore taking care of the
absorb and float stages.
My question is, has anyone out there done this type of system with a
Trace(or Xantrex, Schnieder)4024? The design I'm working on now has a 1500'
conduit run(yikes) and already needs A/C to be run. My plan is to have a
SB4000 inverter, wired to a high efficiency 5k 240/480 transformer on the
array side, and another 5k 480/120 transformer on the Trace side. I know the
design would work with an Outback, but I haven't tried it with a Trace to
know.
Any experience out there?
Lars Ortegren
NABCEP Certified Solar Installer
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518
List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since
1979
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