[RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 566

[Dean, Richard]

Hey Matt,
Let's stay on the technical points, and leave all the political and
opinionated nonsense for some other forum.  Thank you!

Richard Dean
Technical Support Specialist
 
SunWize Technologies
9:00 - 5:30pm Pacific Time
(805) 569-6402
(866) 975-7957 toll free
rdean at sunwize.com
www.sunwize.com
 

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Trace/Xantrex info (Allan Sindelar)
   2. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Joel  Davidson)
   3. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Matt Lafferty)
   4. Re: UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems (Dan Fink)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:47:44 -0600
From: Allan Sindelar <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
To: Brian Teitelbaum <bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com>
Cc: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace/Xantrex info
Message-ID: <4CAB64C0.4060904 at positiveenergysolar.com>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:52:47 -0700
From: "Joel  Davidson" <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems
Message-ID: <012ABEE959E24EBBBC3B642F9E908255 at JOEL>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

Hello Peter, It was good to see you at the LADWP Commissioners Meeting
even 
though we didn't have time to talk. I told Mr. Benyamin, LADWP AGM, at
the 
meeting that there were no safety issues regarding grid-tie PV system
with 
batteries because the inverters were IEEE 929 compliant. He said he was 
concerned about batteries being added to a PV system after the initial 
utility inspection. I told him that batteries can not be added to a 
non-battery inverter. He said it is being done so the conversation
ended. 
How many people are adding battery inverters later? I've done hundreds
of 
grid-tied systems and never added a battery inverter and battery bank
after 
the initial installation.

Wrenches, are you adding batteries to non-battery grid-tied PV systems
after 
the initial installation? If yes, what inverter and how do you deal with
the 
inspector?

Joel Davidson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems


> Peter,
>
> California utilities use to require operating steps (list not UL
listing) 
> for all grid-tied systems in the interconnection application. A copy
of 
> the operating steps from the equipment manual sufficed.
>
> Joel Davidson
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:05 AM
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems
>
>
> Are there UL testing procedures for Grid-tied Battery Backup Systems,
such
> as the Xantrex XW systems and the Outback GVFX systems? The reason for
my
> inquiry is that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power intends
to
> require that "...applicants installing Battery Backups on their solar
> systems to submit an Operational Listing detailing a precise list of
steps
> of what were to happen if the LADWP grid were to lose power."
>
> - Peter
>
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:50:44 -0700
From: "Matt Lafferty" <gilligan06 at gmail.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems
Message-ID: <42F71C0179BF4B10A6B33A87241972BC at GILLIGONE>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Hi Joel,

I've seen a handful of Sunny Islands go in after the initial PV system
is
installed. Six or seven. And I've seen Sunny Islands go in where there
isn't
any PV. All but one of the ones that I've seen installed after the PV
have
been permitted and inspected. ALL of these systems went in because of
utility reliability problems. (Pay attention Mr. AGM... When people do
this,
they are paying a lot of money BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO YOUR JOB.)

With regard to any realistic hazards to utility personnel or operations
these systems may cause... There aren't any. There weren't any in 2002
when
the SW scare caused the turds in LADWP's bowels to harden up the first
time.
Every modern battery-based inverter that I know of has a LISTED transfer
switch to isolate itself from the grid on loss of grid power. This is as
much to protect the inverter from the broken grid, as it is to protect
the
broken grid from the inverter.

The crux of the matter, with regard to AC coupled inverters, is that
these
systems don't have a thing to do with the PV, per se. They can be, and
are
being, installed in applications with or without PV on a regular basis.
Just
like any electrical work, they are required to be permitted and
inspected
when installed. If a property owner chooses to not get the required
permits,
it's on them. Stuff happens. People do sh*t. Every day. Mr. AGM is
chasing a
boogeyman.

I believe that A LOT MORE PV WILL BE INSTALLED WITHOUT PERMITS AND
UTILITY
INSPECTIONS when we finally do away with the incentive programs. That's
when
the guy should be worried. After the incentives stop. Tell him that the
best
way to ensure that PV systems are inspected, is to have a robust
incentive
program and keep everybody "in the system" so to speak. If he's so
gosh-darn
worried about people adding AC coupled backup systems after the initial
PV
system is inspected, tell him to start an incentive program for those,
too.
No permit and inspection? No money. Simple as that. Pick a dollar figure
that is twice as much as the permit fee and everybody will go for it.
Seriously.

The folks who are gonna do guerilla stuff are gonna do guerilla stuff.
Same
as it ever was... In the case of a "customer adds battery backup without
a
permit and it might hurt the utility or lineworkers"... That's stupid.
Number one, the number of potential customers who might do this is
infinitessimally small. I would be totally shocked if there were 100 in
LADWP territory in a year. My best guess is more like half a dozen.
Remember, this is ONLY the guerilla stuff.

But let's use 100 as a worst-case number. 

"OMG! A hundred?" (Gasp, flutter, faint)

Of that 100, 100 of them are now paying a higher electricity bill than
they
would otherwise be. Score one for the utility. As long as they keep the
power on. 

Let's say that 80 of them use modern, off-the-shelf equipment. Doesn't
have
to be wired right. Doesn't have to be inspected. Just modern,
off-the-shelf
and IEEE 929 compliant. If it's like that, ain't no harm coming to the
grid
in no way. So, now we're talking about 20 needles in the smoggy haystack
of
LA. 

How big are they? What kind of fault currents can they put out? What
kind of
backyard inventions are they? What if they are backfeeding the grid when
it's operating and running their meters backward? What if they are
capable
of backfeeding the grid during a power outage? Where are they? How
dangerous
are they to the grid and grid workers? 

That's the scary part, nobody knows... Ooooh.... Ooooohhh.... Boogeyman!

Let's say 10 of the 20 are rogue, independent, half-witted inventors
scattered all over; and the other 10 are a bunch of Tea Party Freaks on
one
cul de sac who bought some cross-wired crap from a screaming freak they
heard about on Fux Noise... Really dangerous stuff here... 

The inventors ain't gonna hurt you. These types aren't gonna have
unlimited
batteries and aren't gonna be building any really big power stuff. They
are
tinkerers. Low-power. Proof of concept. What do you even care if they
are
charging their batteries off the grid and discharging them back onto the
grid? Unless they are over 10kW, it's no more disruptive to your grid
operations than a hot tub. The best they can do is have a net increase
of
2.5% in their electricity usage. During a power outage, the loads
between
their place and the open grid is gonna suck their batteries inside out
if
their stuff stays connected. If they weren't sophisticated enough to
build
something that isolates on power loss, their equipment will either cook
or
go dead in no time.

The Tea Party cul de sac worries me. Here you have 10 houses with armed
freaks inside. And now you're telling me they have batteries, too?
YIKES!
Nah. Not gonna happen. This is a flawed scenario. Tea Party Freaks buy
GENERATORS!

So, to recap, there were only 90 guerilla battery systems that year
after
all. 80 of them were safe due to the equipment. 10 of them were safe due
to
the ignorance of the owner. And the real danger to the grid is a cul de
sac
of Tea Party Freaks with generators and double-male extension cords.

In reality, you're probably talking about a half dozen unpermitted
battery
backup systems installed down there a year. I would be really surprised
if
more than one was in some way capable of backfeeding to a faulted grid
for
longer than a couple seconds. Any system that is bad for grid operations
will show itself sooner, rather than later, in one way or another. When
these things are found, they need to be dealt with appropriately. 

I served as the Grid Cop in Sacramento for a couple years. In the course
of
my travels, I got to see some colorful people and some colorful
battery-based setups. I got to help Y2Kers get onto Net Metering. I had
to
tell people that their power was gonna be shut off if they didn't
physically
take stuff out. I had to do re-inspections. I probably saved a couple
homes
from burning down. And maybe a life or two. I saw homemade equipment and
factory made stuff. I saw double-male extension cords. I saw a pile of
burned up small square-wave inverters that one guy smoked trying to hook
into the house wiring. That guy had a couple modules lying on his roof
with
an orange extension cord coming thru the window to the charge
controller...
The long and the short of it is that none of these people stood a chance
of
hurting the grid with their equipment. And they weren't trying to.

With all due respect to the AGM... He's whacked if he's trying to use
this
boogeyman as an obstruction to PV. Tell him to go home and count up all
the
unpermitted things around his own house. Tell him not to forget to count
the
ceiling fan he had put in the bedroom and the water heater he had
replaced.

If he wants to do something to keep the grid safe, start registering gas
cans.

$0.02001

Matt Lafferty

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:53 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems

Hello Peter, It was good to see you at the LADWP Commissioners Meeting
even
though we didn't have time to talk. I told Mr. Benyamin, LADWP AGM, at
the
meeting that there were no safety issues regarding grid-tie PV system
with
batteries because the inverters were IEEE 929 compliant. He said he was
concerned about batteries being added to a PV system after the initial
utility inspection. I told him that batteries can not be added to a
non-battery inverter. He said it is being done so the conversation
ended. 
How many people are adding battery inverters later? I've done hundreds
of
grid-tied systems and never added a battery inverter and battery bank
after
the initial installation.

Wrenches, are you adding batteries to non-battery grid-tied PV systems
after
the initial installation? If yes, what inverter and how do you deal with
the
inspector?

Joel Davidson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Davidson" <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems


> Peter,
>
> California utilities use to require operating steps (list not UL
listing) 
> for all grid-tied systems in the interconnection application. A copy
of 
> the operating steps from the equipment manual sufficed.
>
> Joel Davidson
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:05 AM
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems
>
>
> Are there UL testing procedures for Grid-tied Battery Backup Systems,
such
> as the Xantrex XW systems and the Outback GVFX systems? The reason for
my
> inquiry is that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power intends
to
> require that "...applicants installing Battery Backups on their solar
> systems to submit an Operational Listing detailing a precise list of
steps
> of what were to happen if the LADWP grid were to lose power."
>
> - Peter
>
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 08:56:22 -0600
From: Dan Fink <danbob at hughes.net>
To: gilligan06 at gmail.com, RE-wrenches
	<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems
Message-ID: <4CAC8E16.2080203 at hughes.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Nice rant, Matt!

When I'm training fire departments in PV safety, I always use a comment 
I stole from Michael Coddington of NREL And Michael Sheehan of IREC from

the Solar ABCs / NREL web lecture on utility external disconnect 
switches -- Rather than PV or battery backup systems, what firefighters 
and utility workers should *really* be concerned about is the homeowner 
who went to Home Depot or Lowes on Dec 31, 1999, purchased a generator 
and automatic transfer switch, and wired it all up wrong. It's estimated

that up to 100,000 of these were installed.

DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting


------------------------------

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End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 3, Issue 566
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