[RE-wrenches] Fw: 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

Tue Feb 16 11:47:58 PST 2010

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez" <allsolar at scswifi.net>
To: <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup


>
> Darryl,
> I would say the utility is still learning.
> 10kw of PV to put into the grid or as large as 33kw if we can get this 
> approved.
> All 120V backed up loads.   We have 120/208.
> The Xantrex XW?.
> What do you mean by single phase backup.
>
> Jeremy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>
>
> If you have 120/208 you have WYE.  How much power do you have to put into 
> the grid?  The question if you need back up power what is it for?  if it 
> is simple plug loads or lighting you might serve the customer well with 
> single phase backup. If you need 3-phase back-up I find it hard to accept 
> that they need it in one box. The Xantrex is three seperate inverters on 
> one board that looks like 1 box.  The three 120 volt units make 120/208 
> three phase. If you have 120/240 three phase you have Delta, high leg. 
> Other combinations of three phase are possible, but more rare.
>
> I am old and I have never seen a problem of 3 phase imbalance if I stay 
> within 20% of the panel rating.  In fact I have seen single phase loads 
> that will imbalance more than 20% not cause a problem.  The problem of 
> imbalance is similar to what occurs with single phase and changed inverter 
> rules to requireing a ground reference on 240 volt inverters.  This 
> problem is that the neutral will get pushed off center voltage wise, I 
> usually demonstrate this in my class.  YOu can not cause significat 
> imbalance with three 120 volt inverters, but you could woty the old 208 no 
> neutral inverters.
>
> Darryl
>
> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez 
> <allsolar at scswifi.net> wrote:
>
>> From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolar at scswifi.net>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 9:27 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> #yiv965209721 DIV {
>> MARGIN:0px;}
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes,
>> No Transformers,
>> Single inverter.
>>
>> Another question, looking
>> at the Fronius 10.1 and
>> 11.4-3, no battery backup of course, they both list
>> 208v in the sizing
>> tool. I need to look at a manual, but I'm not sure
>> if I would need
>> Delta, Wye, ..........
>>
>> Thanks
>> everyone!
>>
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message
>> ----- 
>>   From:
>>   Rebekah
>>   Hren
>>   To: Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
>>
>>   ; RE-wrenches
>>
>>   Sent: Monday,
>> February 15, 2010 5:34
>>   PM
>>   Subject: Re:
>> [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid
>>   Tie with Battery Backup
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Hi,
>>   Does the utility mean by "match" that they
>> don't want the inverter output
>>   transformed in any way?
>>   Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've
>> connected single 120 volt
>>   inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why
>> not) to a 120/208 wye
>>   without problems. You have to make sure the wires are
>> sized correctly (solar
>>   pro had a recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire
>> sizing). This of course
>>   limits your backed up loads to 120V (w/out a
>> transformer).
>>
>>
>>   Rebekah Hren
>>   North Carolina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   From: Allan
>> Sindelar
>>   <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
>> To: RE-wrenches
>>   <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Sent: Mon, February
>> 15, 2010 6:51:12
>>   PM
>> Subject: Re:
>> [RE-wrenches]
>>   3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>>
>> Yes you would. I don't
>>   believe there is a single inverter that meets the
>> utility's wishes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Allan Sindelar
>> Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified
>>   Photovoltaic Installer
>> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Positive Energy,
>>   Inc.
>> 3201 Calle Marie
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
>> 505
>>   424-1112
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>>
>> All
>>   Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
>>   Thanks Darryl,
>> Allen, would you have to use 3
>>     Sunny Islands? one for each phase?
>> The Utility wants a single
>>     inverter.
>>
>> Jeremy
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl
>>     Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
>>
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3
>>     Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
>>
>>
>> I do not know what is going
>>     on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product
>> offering, they have the
>>     capability. I have such a system.
>>
>> Use 3 of their 120 volt
>>     single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208)
>> 3 phase. Each
>>     inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each
>> inverter to the
>>     neutral and one phase, you program one to be the
>> Master, and the others to
>>     be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose
>> the grid, the Master
>>     inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the
>> usual 60 Hz square wave
>>     on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays
>> the start of their
>>     sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3
>> phases. Each
>>     inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase.
>>
>> One thing, besure to get
>>     a rotation meter and check that you are generating
>> 3-phase the same rotation
>>     as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors
>> will reverse and you
>>     may fry the OB transfer relay)
>>
>> Next time you call outback ask a tech
>>     if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 phase,
>>
>> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, All
>>     Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolar at scswifi.net>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>
>>     From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy
>> Rodriguez <allsolar at scswifi.net>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery
>> Backup
>>
>> To: starpower4u at juno.com,
>>       "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM
>> Jeff,
>> That was my
>>       first choice, but I was told by Outback
>> that they do not offer
>> a
>>       120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three
>> phase system yet, so
>>       bare
>> with me please. I was going to contact SMA next.
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Oldham"
>> <starpower4u at juno.com>
>>
>> To: <Allan at positiveenergysolar.com>;
>>
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches]
>>       3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery
>> Backup
>>
>>
>> > You can also do
>>       it w/Outback up to 10.8kW
>> >
>> >>From the Solar, Wind and
>>       Hydro powered office of
>> Jeff Oldham/Regenerative
>> >>SOLutions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by
>>   Home Power magazine
>>
>> List Address:
>>   RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Options &
>>   settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>>
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List
>>   rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out
>>   participant
>> bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Options & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>