[RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

Wed Dec 2 07:24:34 PST 2009

Right on Larry, paralleled batteries is always as failure and it is very hazardous paralleled strings of sealed batteries can suffer thermal runaway one string getting destroyed and in the well known case the fire can spread. 

I have applied a high voltage to sulfated batteries at first they draw little current, then over time the current increases. (one example 60 volts to a 12 volt battery, over time the current increased and the voltage by design dropped, the batteries lasted another 3 years)

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar <larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar <larry at starlightsolar.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 11:41 AM
> If the 180 watt panel will provide
> enough current to run the recovery process, then give it a
> try. What I expect is that your current will vary throughout
> the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will
> just prolong the process. Pay attention to the
> temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the terminals
> every 30 minutes to verify.
> Another thing to monitor is the current. It will
> probably start very low and build over time due to
> high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time the
> voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't
> worry about the voltage. After a while the current will
> begin to drop. This means the recovery process is
> working. 
> I just realized that this battery bank must be 4
> in series and ten parallel strings. This is a horrible
> design that can never work right without extensive monthly
> maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be
> charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be
> undercharged every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover
> these batteries, someone will need to test and equalize at
> least every month. I really want to stress this point as
> multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many
> thousands of tons of batteries each year. I never design for
> more than two strings in parallel. Do this and be
> happy.
> Larry Crutcherwww.starlightsolar.comlarry at starlightsolar.com(928)
> 941-1660
> Retail Store &
> Shipping 2998 Shari
> Ave.Yuma, AZ 85365
> Mailing
> address11881 South Fortuna Road;
> #210Yuma, AZ 85367
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service,
> Installations
> 
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Conrad Geyser
> wrote:
> Thanks
> for the amazing responses everyone!
>  Larry,
> it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match
> for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight
> wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? 
> Does it matter if the process get’s interrupted by a few
> nights / cloudy days?  Do you have a preferred test
> approach?
>  Yeah,
> this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to
> make sure it can’t be saved.
>  ConradCotuit
> Solar
>  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
> Crutcher, Starlight Solar
> Sent: Monday, November
> 30, 2009 11:17 AM
> To:  RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [ RE-wrenches
> ] concord batteries, EQUALIZE
> Them!  Conrad,
>  We have sold many  Concord (Lifeline, Sun
> Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and
> half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord
> AGM's.
>  When our mobile cus tom ers abuse
> their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has
> a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I
> am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG
> battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly
> controlled. I have done it many times and the result is
> always to recover some or most
> capacity. 
>  Do one battery at a
> time.1.  Battery temp: 77 degrees
> (+/-5) and stable2. Apply charge current limited to
> 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not
> regulate voltage!3. Monitor temperature and
> voltage.4(a) If temperature reaches 130F,
> stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature
> has been lowered to room
> temperature.4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc,
> continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3
> vpc!!  Follow 4(a) about
> temp.5. After this process, perform a
> capacity test. 
>  This has worked for me with
> chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I
>  have never had one vent or go into thermal run away.
> At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time to try
> if you have the power source and
> time.
>  For
> reference this process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical
> manual, page 20. http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf
>  Larry
> Crutcherwww.starlightsolar.comlarry at starlightsolar.com(928)
> 941-1660
>  On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM,
> Conrad Geyser wrote:
> 
> In the
> vein of us on grid folks who’s heads spin when the off
> grid folks start talking about charge programming and gen
> set start up parameters…
>  I am
> servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid system that is only 1
> 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries,
> which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under
> 10V after a generator EQ charge).  I’m sure the
> batteries have been abused at least after the point that
> someone lowered the generator start voltage to 40V. 
> We’re still doing fact finding on the charge parameters
> for the PV and wind, but I’m wondering if there is anyone
> that has an opinion on the Concorde
> batteries.
>  And at
> least at this point, I’m glad I had to study for some off
> grid questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention the
> conversations on this list.    :
> >
>  ConradCotuit
> Solar
>  
>  
>  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
> Schultze
> Sent: Wednesday,
> November 25, 2009 9:59 AM
> To:  RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [ RE-wrenches
> ] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid
>  William,Nice to
> meet you -however briefly- at the Solar Zoo in  Anaheim
> .If you
> don't see the value in being NABCEP certified, then you
> shouldn't bother with it. If your state- as more than a
> few have- decides to recognize it in some way that affects
> your pocket, then you'll likely change your mind PDQ.
> I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know about
> because I was Certified and the other bidder was not, but
> our bids were very close in price. Low-ballers, like head
> lice, are just a nasty fact of
> life.While I
> generally agree with you on your point #2, it varies a lot
> state to state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I
> understand the rules in CA are changing, enforcement is, and
> has always been, a joke. In OR, you need a 4000 hour
> apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general electrical classroom
> time to get a Renewable Energy license. A general journeyman
> license is twice that. I've had inspectors come to our
> job site and check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you
> don't lay hands on a wire without a license. Ever hear
> of the like in CA? Maybe in the big cities, but nowhere
> else.We're
> totally on the same page about the IBEW. If you understand
> that their goal is total domination of the electrical trade
> everywhere, a lot of how they operate makes sense. I'm a
> pro-Union kinda guy as a rule, but, like religion, too much
> of a thing is way worse than
> none.As to
> experience with EMT and the like, again it varies state to
> state and certainly region to region. In this neck of the
> woods, if you can't bend an offset or saddle bend, you
> are either a new apprentice or
> unemployed.Best,
> Bob-O
>  On Nov 24,
> 2009, at 11:48 PM, William Miller
> wrote:
>  Friends:
> 
> I'd like to make two brief points on the
> training/NABCEP debate:
> 
> 1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more
> job I'd normally lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be
> inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.
> 
> 2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered
> electricians.  Until they learn the trade, they are not
> qualified to install the most basic grid tie system. 
> Conversely, many electricians with the most basic electrical
> skills think they know all that needs to be known to design
> and install solar-electric.  Wrong again.
> 
> I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the
> solar industry by force, but I do respect their concept of
> actually encouraging well rounded electrician's
> skills.  How many solar installers can actually lay an
> offset into a stick of EMT?  Not many.  Most are
> glorified stereo installers, plugging and praying.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> William
> Miller
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