[RE-wrenches] Prices on PV
Joel Davidson
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net
Wed Feb 4 13:41:15 PST 2009
Amen! Publishing PV module costs began in the 1970s when the DOE and the PV industry were doing collaborative R&D to reduce costs. Many industry studies still publish costs, but few include operating expenses and profit needed to reward workers and expand our businesses. You don't see the automobile industry telling people that their manufacturing cost for a car is 1/4 the MSRP. Or oil companies telling people that they pay $1/gallon for oil that they convert and sell for $2/gallon at the pump (unless they are complaining about added taxes but not mentioning oil industry subsidies). One way to overcome concern about your prices is to let your prospects visit your shop and see what you spend their money on.
--- On Wed, 2/4/09, Greg Egan <greg at remotepowerinc.com> wrote:
From: Greg Egan <greg at remotepowerinc.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Prices on PV
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 11:50 AM
Hey guys,
Is this a list that can be viewed by the public or what? If it is - why are we advertising the lowest prices we can buy PV for? Would you intentionally tell a potential client - "I'm buying PV for 2.95/watt but I'll sell it to you for 3.95 - how do you like that?"
I spoke to Michael about this a month ago regarding posts about battery pricing and he said it CAN be viewed by the public although it isn't advertised. He also said that he found a link to a post from this list on GOOGLE although it's not supposed to be there. Google is about as public as it gets!
I don't know about your customers but if mine knew there was 2.95/watt pv out there they'd want to pay 2.95 /watt and not a penny more. Same thing for batteries and everything else we sell. Especially in this economy.
Understand - I have the utmost respect for all the posters on this list and recognize that some of you have decades more business experience than I do. However, I strongly suggest if you want to talk pricing with people - contact them off list. I don't see where publishing your wholesale discount pricing on the web is good for your business, my business, or the RE industry as a whole.
Best,
Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: future market crystal ball (Wind-sun.com)
2. Re: NY Times: 25% price reduction on PV (Joel Davidson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:47:28 -0700
From: "Wind-sun.com" <windsun at wind-sun.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] future market crystal ball
To: <jryago at netscape.com>, "RE-wrenches"
<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <DA848322407546698DAFC184A9B93B28 at Warren>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
We saw the same thing, and it is like deja vu all over again.
And I totally agree on this part: ". I think any government related "gift"
always brings more problems than they are worth, as sooner or later there
will be more forms to fill out, more fees, inspections, approvals, and other
strings that are always attached.."
Subsidies and "gifts" always distort the true market, inviting profiteers
and fly by night operations. We are seeing them already. This applies to
solar panels just as much as it does to ethanol, corn, or oil.
And the increased government regulation started hitting at least two years
ago. We will be stuck with those regulations forever, but eventually the
subsidies will go away. While panel prices have dropped somewhat, we have
seen a huge increase in things like permit costs, general (often useless)
red tape, etc.
..................................................................................................
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
----- Original Message -----
From: " Jeff Yago" <jryago at netscape.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] future market crystal ball
Being in the solar business during the first solar tax credits during
Jimmy Carter, I see the same things going on again now with the new tax
credits. I think those who do not know history will repeat it. On one hand
solar tax credits increase interest and "buzz" with the general public and
will cause the fence-sitters to finally make the purchase. But I also
think this will only affects the fence sitters, so after the initial
increase in sales as a result of the tax credits, the market will settle
back to sales based on actual need. Tax credits also have a downside, like
bringing some marketers and installers into the market who have little or
no experience, who do poor quality installations that get highly
publicized, and who will use tax credits to hide their much higher profit
margins. I think any government related "gift" always brings more problems
than they are worth, as sooner or later there will be more forms to fill
out, more fees, inspections, approvals, and other strings that are always
attached - there are no free lunches and no free tax credits.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:05:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NY Times: 25% price reduction on PV
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <628833.9849.qm at web83708.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
PV module and cell prices have dropped and the PV industry is laying off good people as a result of the world-wide recession. Other industries are experiencing price reductions and layoffs too. The financial meltdown is bad, but it is a different (but not?separate) problem?than the accelerating global economic changes being caused by over-population, resource depletion, climate change, and disruptive technology change. The sky is not falling, but your cheese is being moved by forces beyond your control. All the more reason to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
?
Joel Davidson
--- On Wed, 2/4/09, Drake Chamberlin <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
From: Drake Chamberlin <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NY Times: 25% price reduction on PV
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 7:49 AM
The Wrench list should be in good a position to evaluate whether or
not green technology is heading down the tubes. It seems hopeful
for another good year, from my perspective. Can anyone confirm or
deny this? Has the bottom fallen out in your area?
Maybe wind farms and other concerns, requiring huge capital outlays,
will have a hard time with the current credit situation, but will
that deeply effect the more modest projects?
If module prices have indeed dropped 25%, that should indeed lower
the costs of systems. Even if modules are only 60% of the cost, a
25% reduction in 60% of the price is significant, still a 15%
decrease in system costs. That, with rebates and other incentives,
should add up to an easier to swallow price tag.
With money in the bank gaining minuscule interest, and inflation
eating up savings, spending money can make sense. Buy a PV or hot
water system, and savings are again working by producing ever more
expensive energy. Leave it in the bank, and watch its value deteriorate.
Maybe I'm deep in that river in Egypt (De Nile), but I'm hoping we
are still on the upswing.
At 09:41 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote:
Take notice: Today's NY Times quotes Rhone Resch of SEIA as saying
"The price of solar panels has fallen by 25 percent in six
months."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/business/04windsolar.html
What kind of $/W are people getting these days?
--
Nicholas Ponzio
Building Energy
1570 South Brownell Road
Williston, VT 05495
t: 802-859-3384 x15
f: 802-658-3982
www.BuildingEnergyVT.com
"Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future"
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