[RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

Wed Dec 31 10:28:08 PST 2008

HI all and Ron
Hope you find the answer soon as this is a puzzelment to me.  

My take, if the generator is running and there is an audiable click, the voltage drops and probibly the frequency the inverter would correctly release the generator, the generator would recover and then the inverter tries again.  If the AC-in max charge current is set very low, or even off, the inverter must be loading the AC-in beyond the generators capability, which means the generator is on idle or not a generator problem. If the generator is running on idle then it would need some fixed load to make it run on power.  

If it is the inverter either the inverter is picking up load on AC-out or it is backing feeding to AC in or the inverter has a bad board.  Assuming the inverter is not backfeeding itself, or the inverter is not feeding a short or extreamly large load, then the Inverter FET? board must be shorted.

Darryl 

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kirpal Khalsa <solarworks at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 10:07 PM
> Hi Ron, Jay and all.......It is easy to blame the generator
> because it is
> usually the generator causing the problem.........One thing
> that we have run
> into on occasion is that the generator has been re-adjusted
> and tuned up but
> that the generator repair person does this only at an idle
> load.....We now
> always make sure that when our customers are having their
> generators tuned
> up that also included in the tune up is that the generator
> is able to hold
> its voltage and frequency at a minimum of 3/4 of the rated
> load
> capacity........This has solved a few of our generator 
> connection
> issues...........just one idea.....
> Might be worth while to test the generator under these
> parameters as this
> would affect the the acceptance by the VFX.....
> Cheers,
> Kirpal
> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 PM, jay peltz
> <jay at asis.com> wrote:
> 
> > HI Christopher,
> > I don't know if this is similar.
> >
> > I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at
> 120v.  Being fed from a
> > 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is
> a Onan 8.5kw.  (
> > don't ask why its a long story)
> >
> > Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.
> >
> > When you start the generator, the inverter will
> connect, AC voltage will
> > rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and
> the cycle repeats.
> >
> > Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few
> lights ( could
> > be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150
> watts worth, and then turn on
> > the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the AC
> spike. But a small motor
> > spike, such as a Rotozip etc will kick out the
> generator, and then it starts
> > again.
> >
> > Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help,
> unless you turn it down
> > a lot.
> > The generator has a new board and was tested out as
> OK.
> >
> > If you run the house directly from the generator no
> problems. You can run
> > large loads no problem.
> > If you run the house directly from the inverter all is
> good.
> >
> > Only issue is with genny/inv interface.
> >
> > Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.
> >
> > Do you think this is a related problem?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > jay
> >
> > peltz power
> >  On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas
> wrote:
> >
> >   Ron –
> >
> >
> > Tech support is open today and should be able to help
> you troubleshoot this
> > in a step-by-step process that will discover the root
> problem.
> >
> >
> > I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events
> and have the
> > following questions and comments:
> >
> >
> > When you tested just the inverter without the
> generator running – you
> > stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20
> seconds – did you also
> > notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light
> would blink and then turn solid
> > momentarily?  This usually indicates that there is a
> cross connection of the
> > inverter's AC output with the AC input wiring –
> which can be caused by many
> > different problems (nicked or chewed wires, water
> filled junction box or
> > conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load, etc. – or an
> internal problem with the
> > inverter).  In a nutshell – the inverter is
> "seeing" its own AC output at
> > its AC input – so it connects and then tries to
> charge from itself – which
> > causes the AC output voltage to decrease – and then
> it drops the AC source
> > for another 20 seconds – over and over…
> >
> >
> > When the generator was connected to the inverter –
> was the varying AC input
> > voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the
> MATE's display?   The
> > voltage display on the MATE will vary until the
> inverter has actually
> > connected to the generator since the inverter is not
> locked onto the
> > frequency of the generator.  The fluctuation of the AC
> voltage on the MATE
> > is more pronounced if the frequency of the generator
> is way off from the
> > 60hz nominal.  Check the voltage and the frequency at
> the inverter's AC
> > input terminals with a good quality true-RMS meter
> with the generator
> > running but not connected.
> >
> >
> > Is this a 120/240VAC "split phase" generator
> operating with only one
> > inverter on it?  It is possible that an internal
> connection in the
> > generators windings has fried due to overloading one
> output leg of the
> > generator – its similar to a bad solder joint where
> the voltage is OK until
> > current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try
> putting the inverter
> > on the other leg to see if you see the same issue.
> >
> >
> > I agree with the multiple problem theory that was
> suggested – it sounds
> > like the generator is having a problem maintaining
> good voltage (or more
> > likely a high enough frequency probably) and then
> there is some type of
> > voltage feedback occurring when the generator is not
> connected.   Be sure to
> > check the frequency of the generator when seeing
> issues like this – its
> > often the problem.
> >
> >
> > Let us know if you need more assistance
> >
> >
> >  Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Christopher Freitas
> > Director of Research and Development
> > OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
> > cfreitas at outbackpower.com
> > Tel 360 435 6030
> > Cell 360 202 4239
> > 19009 62nd Ave NE
> > Arlington WA 98223 USA
> > www.outbackpower.com
> >  ------------------------------
> >  *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
> >
> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> > ] *On Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin
> > *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
> > *To:* RE-wrenches
> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage
> cycling
> >
> >
> > I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post
> of yours it appeared
> > that the system ran more normally when *not* connected
> to the house loads,
> > but still cycled.
> >
> > Could something on the load side be shorting, or could
> there be a huge load
> > trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It
> may well be a situation
> > where two (or more) things are going on
> simultaneously.  My approach would
> > be to continue to isolate components and run several
> different tests on all
> > components.
> >
> > Good luck
> >
> > Drake
> >
> >
> > At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
> >
> > This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got
> mixed in with the
> > "strings of different orientation" thread.
> If anyone has further input I
> > would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a
> long trip to remedy
> > this and want to have as much ammunition as possible.
> Again, to restate the
> > problem:
> >
> >
> > an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in
> a remote off-grid
> > location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is
> fluctuating between 110
> > & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect
> so batteries can't charge.
> > Output voltage measured at the inverter output
> terminals is steady at 122v.
> > When all household loads are turned off the input
> terminal voltage
> > stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.
> >
> > Generator does not seem to be at fault as output
> measured at the gen. is
> > stable even under load. System was working for about 1
> 1/2 years but under
> > new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries
> have become totally
> > discharged.
> >
> > I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board
> problem so I can perform
> > a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an
> in-stock inverter, Outback
> > tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar
> problem?
> >
> >
> > Mick,
> >
> > referring to
> >
> >
> > there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset
> which may have accidentally
> > been set for auto, is there?
> >
> > His generator was actually running in idle mode,
> operating the household
> > loads when I got there and the first thing I
> discovered was that the voltage
> > was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually
> switched the generator
> > to full speed and then checked the voltage again, that
> is where I found the
> > rapid fluctuations occurring at the inverter.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had
> wired a switch incorrectly
> > and when he turned it on the system "shut
> down". He then re-wired it and
> > everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this
> fried a board."
> >
> > Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback
> and other brands (going
> > as
> > far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds
> to an accidental
> > short
> > circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off
> quicker than a
> > circuit
> > breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your
> customer
> > experienced...possibly
> > due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box
> shorting out to ground.
> >
> > I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is
> completely unrelated to
> > your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I
> would beg, borrow,
> > or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily
> instead of the Honda
> > 3800.
> > That's the most conclusive way to determine fault
> or no-fault on the
> > generator.
> >
> > Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK
> and will exhibit
> > normal
> > looking voltage etc. but there still could be
> transients or spikes which
> > render this input AC power unacceptable to the
> inverter/charger.
> >
> > Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that
> genset which may have
> > accidentally been set for auto, is there?
> >
> > Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> > www.abrahamsolar.com
> > Voice: 970-731-4675
> >
> >
> >  Hi Mick & Jay,
> > I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and
> tested the output and got
> > steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and
> tested the gen. output
> > from a different outlet and got steady voltage, both
> around 122v. So I've
> > ruled out the generator. It was my first suspicion.
> >
> > I have also noticed that when the household loads are
> off the inverter
> > output appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except
> about every 20 seconds
> > inverter audibly, the voltage drops from around 120 to
> 110 then resumes - as
> > if the input was momentarily dropped.
> >
> > Darryl,
> > I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to
> around 5 aac but it
> > didn't seem to make a difference. The owner told
> me, as an afterthought that
> > someone had wired a switch incorrectly and when he
> turned it on the system
> > "shut down". He then re-wired it and
> everything appeared ok but I'm
> > wondering if this fried a board. I know there is an ac
> control board in
> > there ... could this be it?
> >
> > BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
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> > Drake Chamberlin
> > Athens Electric
> > OH License 44810
> > CO License 3773
> > 740-448-7328
> > 740-856-9648
> >
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> 
> -- 
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Renewable Energy Systems
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