[RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
Joel Davidson
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net
Sat Sep 6 18:37:09 PDT 2008
Darryl,
Thank you for the detailed reply. Keep up the great work!
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc: "dt renewables" <dtrenewables at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
> hi ALL
> I am the NABCEP certified installer that teaches the course. So I am the
> horses mouth. If you knew the whole story it might look different.
> Further we have no sweetheart deal with NABCEP, and are encouraging them
> to increase their standards. Following is part of the story.
>
> To complete this course the following:
>
> 1) the student must be a practicing electrician, for at least 4 years.
> holding a Minnesota journeyman’s license and have a current OSHA 10 hour
> stamp.
> (Note: NABCEP requested up to five times that the Employment records be
> sent, and they would not accept a letter from the Union on letter head if
> it was faxed or e-mailed, on just sent on photocopied letter head without
> a proof of validity of the records, this minutia alone cost me a great
> amount of money and many hours.
>
> 2) The student must complete 56 hours of classroom training. the school
> requires attendance, and missing a day of class or even 2 hours will
> require the retaking of the particular course. (for this reason the 56
> hour class is broken into 3 each 16 hour classes and one 8 hour class, and
> if a student misses a single class he/she must only repeat a 16 hour
> session) These people are workers with lives, and this is my attempt to
> make this work course more palatable.
>
> 3) The school also requires the student to complete written tests during
> the sessions, to prove competency, and as an instructor I can require a
> student retake a 16 hour session before they move to the next session. All
> sessions must be taken in order, for example a student must take and
> complete solar basics before taking solar intermediate. \
>
> 3a) The book which we use is the ATP “Solar Systems” (ATP Press) 435 pages
> and I work to cover most of these pages in only 56 hours. Some of the
> materials are not appropriate for installer’s, however the balance of the
> book is covered in "solar for contractors"
>
> 4) After completion of these 56 hours, they are encouraged to take the
> NABCEP Certificate of Knowledge test. (However because it costs 70$ and
> NABCEP does not require this cert for qualifying for the installer test
> many do not take the test. (I think NABCEP should require training and
> COK. I also think 40 hours of training for cert test is ridiculous.)
>
> 5) Then after satisfactory completion the student is allowed to take the
> 64 hour installers course. I will not, nor will the school, accept anyone
> who has not at least 4 years experience as electrician, have OSHA stamp,
> completed the 56 hour COK course, to take the installer course!.
>
> 6) the 64 Hour installers course is a minimum of 64 hours (school based
> installations). (BTW: My two installers classes both ran 80 hours, with
> some students carrying over to complete their installs) During this
> class we indeed disassemble and reassemble a ground mount array, with each
> student completing a section of the array for their inverter and system
> based experience. EACH student must complete the following!!!
>
> 6a) Install one single phase DGI inverter complete witn setting into
> operation, and trouble shooting and inspection. (for trouble shooting I
> introduce a fault, usually a ground fault in the array but other faults
> are possible , the student must tell me where in the array the fault is by
> testing.)
>
> 6b) Install one three phase inverter (commercial) array. The student
> chooses either a 120-208 three phase, or 208 three phase, or 277-480
> three-phase, or a battery based (only choice is 120/208) system. They
> wire and connect the inverters, or inverter, and set into operation, and
> trouble shoot problems that I introduce. These faults include offset
> neutral voltage, out of specification phase voltage, array grounding, high
> resistance in the line connections and others.
>
> 6c) Then the students working in teams of two must install a battery
> based system it might be a stand-alone, or grid interactive. (We have
> only three brands of battery based inverters at present, some 24 and 48
> volt.) If the student team choses to install a battery based standalone
> system they must demonstrate auto gen start. I also introduce faults
> into these systems which the student must diagnose.
>
> 6d) The students then as team of 4 build class projects, these are
> usually hybrid system, or micro-grid (ac coupled inverters), or other
> unusual systems.
>
> 6e) Each student experiences installation hardware of top of pole mount
> and roof mount, and we are building as part of the small wind training
> facility additional solar installation space.
>
> 7) only after completing this 64 hour course are they allowed to
> participate in the final phase. This phase is in two parts, one,
> assist in an install lead by others, and two, lead in the install of a 1
> kW or larger inverter based system. For the leader of the install, I
> make the contact with the customer, I do not sell the final design. The
> student, with me close by, but not always present works with the customer
> to design and describe the installation. The customers for the last round
> was high schools working on a state/utility grant of 5000 dollars for a 1
> kW system, or homeowners with their budget. Some of the schools had
> additional budget, some did not. The completed student design is then
> submitted for my approval, and permitting where required is arranged. The
> lead student with the help of additional student performs the install,
> under my observation. The student does this under the warrantee of the
> contractor of record. Who insists
> that I make finial approval of the installation. Then the student faces
> the utility inspector, the electrical inspector, and the building
> inspector.
>
> Why is this approach necessary? In Minnesota up to July there are only,
> 185 installations in the last 4 years, the average install is just under
> 3kW. My students install in about 30 hrs/ kW on 1kW systems and faster
> on the larger couple of systems. If 600 kW were installed, this would be
> a max of 18,000 man-hours, to install the whole state 4 year solar
> base!!! At 2000 man-hours/ year, 9 people! could install the entire state
> 4 year solar electric base in one year. We are seeing an exponential
> growth in solar, and expect an explosion of solar installations, DO YOU
> WANT THESE DONE BY FIRST TIMERS? Many of the states installers are being
> done this way. I have been called to repair such systems.
>
> It is indeed tough to get ahead of the solar game, NABCEP is hopefully
> providing standards and the local Union is trying to exceed. The local
> industry can not grow to meet the demand unless planning an participation
> and training is followed. The local union membership voted to add to
> their dues enough monies to build the solar training lab. This was
> $200,000 dollars. Further some solar companies Xantrex, PVPowered,
> Outback, Silent Power, SMA, Fronius, Apollo, Morningstar, Surrette
> Battery, Sharp, and MIdnight solar have gifted the lab with additional
> equipment.
>
> I and the local union have supported NABCEP as a requirement for state
> refund, at many levels, I and the local Union hope this support will
> result in quality standards. There is no attempt on my part to circumvent
> the NABCEP standards, only to enhance the quality of solar installations.
>
> BTW Most but not all of the students start the sequence in the fall and
> complete in the spring. They have completed typically 180 hours of
> guided, intense work to get ready for certification. How does this
> compare with Someone who swept the floor or installed hot tubs or solar
> water heaters, or built decks or just wired houses, and then was involved
> in two solar installs and is now qualified to test. It is very apparent
> the variety of experience starting in a classroom to a lab to the field
> has deck building or house wiring beat hands down. (There is no solar
> installer in the state that is anywhere near pure PV, and further some are
> doing their first two and only two installs to qualify.
>
> To imply that NABCEP has given us special treatment is pure Baloney.. If
> you want your ears red you should be part of my (pleading?) with NABCEP
> for the equivalence of training on 4 systems to equal one field install.
>
> Darryl
>
>
> work.
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Tump <tump at hughes.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Tump <tump at hughes.net>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:20 PM
>> Good day fellow NABCEP installers. My brother in law ,who is
>> a member of
>> IBEW, was visiting from Minnesota, needless to say we have
>> some interesting
>> discussions, this one for example.
>> He said that he was taking a course, taught by a NABCEP
>> certified
>> installer, "to get the guys certified". We talked
>> about the course & I
>> asked,"When are you taking the test you don't have
>> the experience". His
>> reply was; September, & as for the hands on
>> experience, he told me they
>> have a generic grid tie system that they assemble &
>> unassembled a few times
>> that "met the hands on requirements". I asked
>> what about the time frame of
>> work?, to which he replied that " the instructor &
>> the IBEW were pressuring
>> NABCEP to wave this requirements!.
>> I am aware that there is a shortage of "Properly
>> Trained" installers but if
>> the above is true then once again. OUR NABCEP credentials
>> are being watered
>> downed to benefit a few!
>> NABCEP & the teacher (contractual obligations?) profit
>> by waving these
>> requirements, but the public & those of us who have
>> HONESTLY met the
>> requirements LOSE!
>> Where is the NABCEP representative on the board? Are you
>> involved during
>> these discussions?What is your response to this?
>> Are these board discussions involving the whole board?
>> Perhaps this another
>> one of the boards secret meetings that "aren't
>> secret"? Doesn't the board
>> have a responsibility to the folks who have become
>> certified, maintaining
>> the acme of standards in the installation field?
>> Is this a discussion that was slated for the annual
>> meeting? Hummm, the test
>> is in September & the annual meeting is in October.
>> Would someone "in the know" like to respond to
>> this?
>>
>> We already discussed the lack of "transparency of the
>> NABCEP board" early
>> this year. I seem to remember being told "the Wrench
>> list was NOT the place
>> to have these discussions".
>> When we hear about this kind of thing, from outside the
>> NABCEP organization,
>> anyplace is a good place to not only question the board,
>> but also to discuss
>> it!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net
>> <http://www.swnl.net/>
>> www.SWNL.net
>> Solarwinds Northernlights
>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>> Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
>>
>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
>>
>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer /
>> Installer"
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
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