[RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?

[David Brearley]

Work force development is a huge issue if the US solar market takes off the
way we all hope it will. This sounds like a model program, very admirable.
The ATP Press textbook is very comprehensive. The in-class, hands-on labs
described are diverse. And the students are all highly-qualified before they
can even enroll. If the issue raised is whether these IBEW PV Program
graduates are qualified to sit for the NABCEP exam, it sure sounds to me
like they are. 

There are probably a bunch of people on this list who would love to hire
some of those grads...what's Minnesota going to do then? ;^)

David Brearley, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 



On 9/5/08 3:40 PM, "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com> wrote:

> hi ALL
I am the NABCEP certified installer that teaches the course.  So I am
> the horses mouth. If you knew the whole story it might look different.
> Further we have no sweetheart deal with NABCEP, and are encouraging them to
> increase their standards.  Following is part of the story. 

To complete this
> course the following:

1) the student must be a practicing electrician, for at
> least 4 years. holding a Minnesota journeyman¹s license and have a current
> OSHA 10 hour stamp. 
(Note: NABCEP requested up to five times that the
> Employment records be sent, and they would not accept a letter from the Union
> on letter head if it was faxed or e-mailed, on just sent on photocopied letter
> head without a proof of validity of the records, this minutia alone cost me a
> great amount of money and  many hours.

2) The student must complete 56 hours
> of classroom training.  the school requires attendance, and missing a day of
> class or even 2 hours will require the retaking of the particular course.
> (for this reason the 56 hour class is broken into 3 each 16 hour classes and
> one 8 hour class, and if a student misses a single class he/she must only
> repeat a 16 hour session) These people are workers with lives, and this is my
> attempt to make this work course more palatable.   

3) The school also
> requires the student to complete written tests during the sessions, to prove
> competency, and as an instructor I can require a student retake a 16 hour
> session before they move to the next session. All sessions must be taken in
> order, for example a student must take and complete solar basics before taking
> solar intermediate.     \

3a) The book which we use is the ATP ³Solar
> Systems² (ATP Press) 435 pages and I work to cover most of these pages in only
> 56 hours.  Some of the materials are not appropriate for installer¹s, however
> the balance of the book is covered in "solar for contractors"   

4) After
> completion of these 56 hours, they are encouraged to take the NABCEP
> Certificate of Knowledge test.  (However because it costs 70$ and NABCEP does
> not require this cert for qualifying for the installer test many do not take
> the test.  (I think NABCEP should require training and COK.  I also think 40
> hours of training for cert test is ridiculous.) 

5) Then after satisfactory
> completion the student is allowed to take the 64 hour installers course.  I
> will not, nor will the school, accept anyone who has not at least 4 years
> experience as electrician, have OSHA stamp, completed the 56 hour COK course,
> to take the installer course!.

6) the 64 Hour installers course is a minimum
> of 64 hours (school based installations).  (BTW: My two installers classes
> both ran 80 hours, with some students carrying  over to complete their
> installs)   During this class we indeed disassemble and reassemble a ground
> mount array, with each student completing a section of the array for their
> inverter and system based experience.  EACH student must complete the
> following!!! 

6a) Install one single phase DGI inverter complete witn setting
> into operation, and trouble shooting and inspection.  (for trouble shooting I
> introduce a fault, usually a ground fault in the array but other faults are
> possible , the student must tell me where in the array the fault is by
> testing.)  

6b) Install one three phase inverter (commercial) array.  The
> student chooses either a 120-208 three phase, or 208 three phase, or 277-480
> three-phase, or a battery based (only choice is 120/208) system.  They wire
> and connect the inverters, or inverter, and set into operation, and trouble
> shoot problems that I introduce.  These faults include offset neutral voltage,
> out of specification phase voltage, array grounding, high resistance in the
> line connections and others.  

6c)  Then the students working in teams of
> two must install a battery based system it might be a stand-alone, or grid
> interactive.  (We have only three brands of battery based inverters at
> present, some 24 and 48 volt.)  If the student team choses to install a
> battery based standalone system they must demonstrate auto gen start.   I also
> introduce faults into these systems which the student must diagnose.   

6d)
> The students then as team of 4 build class projects, these are usually hybrid
> system, or micro-grid (ac coupled inverters), or other unusual systems.  
6e)
> Each student experiences installation hardware of top of pole mount and roof
> mount, and we are building as part of the small wind training facility
> additional solar installation space.   

7) only after completing this 64 hour
> course are they allowed to participate in the final phase.      This phase is
> in two parts, one, assist in an install lead by others, and two, lead in the
> install of a 1 kW or larger inverter based system.   For the leader of the
> install, I make the contact with the customer, I do not sell the final design.
> The student, with me close by, but not always present works with the customer
> to design and describe the installation.  The customers for the last round was
> high schools working on a state/utility grant of 5000 dollars for a 1 kW
> system, or homeowners with their budget.  Some of the schools had additional
> budget, some did not.  The completed student design is then submitted for my
> approval, and permitting where required is arranged.  The lead student with
> the help of additional student performs the install, under my observation.
> The student does this under the warrantee of the contractor of record.  Who
> insists
 that I make finial approval of the installation.  Then the student
> faces the utility inspector, the electrical inspector, and the building
> inspector.

Why is this approach necessary?  In Minnesota up to July there are
> only, 185 installations in the last 4 years, the average install is just under
> 3kW.   My students install in about 30 hrs/ kW  on 1kW systems and faster on
> the larger couple of systems.  If 600 kW were installed, this would be a max
> of 18,000 man-hours,  to install the whole state 4 year solar base!!! At 2000
> man-hours/ year, 9 people! could install the entire state 4 year solar
> electric base in one year.  We are seeing an exponential growth in solar, and
> expect an explosion of solar installations, DO YOU WANT THESE DONE BY FIRST
> TIMERS?  Many of the states installers are being done this way.   I have been
> called to repair such systems.  

It is indeed tough to get ahead of the solar
> game, NABCEP is hopefully providing  standards and the local Union is trying
> to exceed.  The local industry can not grow to meet the demand unless planning
> an participation and training is followed.   The local union membership voted
> to add to their dues enough monies to build the solar training lab.  This was
> $200,000 dollars.   Further some solar companies Xantrex, PVPowered, Outback,
> Silent Power, SMA, Fronius, Apollo, Morningstar, Surrette Battery, Sharp, and
> MIdnight solar have gifted the lab with additional equipment.  

I and the
> local union have supported NABCEP as a requirement for state refund, at many
> levels, I and the local Union hope this support will result in quality
> standards.  There is no attempt on my part to circumvent the NABCEP standards,
> only to enhance the quality of solar installations.  

BTW Most but not all of
> the students start the sequence in the fall and complete in the spring.  They
> have completed typically 180 hours of guided, intense work to get ready for
> certification.  How does this compare with Someone who swept the floor or
> installed hot tubs or solar water heaters, or built decks or just wired
> houses, and then was involved in two solar installs and is now qualified to
> test.  It is very apparent the variety of experience starting in a classroom
> to a lab to the field has deck building or house wiring beat hands down.
> (There is no solar installer in the state that is anywhere near pure PV, and
> further some are doing their first two and only two installs to qualify.

To
> imply that NABCEP has given us special treatment is pure Baloney..  If you
> want your ears red you should be part of my (pleading?) with NABCEP for the
> equivalence of training on 4 systems to equal one field install.  

Darryl



> work.    



--- On Fri, 9/5/08, Tump <tump at hughes.net> wrote:

> From: Tump
> <tump at hughes.net>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Friday,
> September 5, 2008, 12:20 PM
> Good day fellow NABCEP installers. My brother in
> law ,who is
> a member of
> IBEW, was visiting from Minnesota, needless to say
> we have
> some interesting
> discussions, this one for example.
>  He  said
> that he was taking a course, taught by a NABCEP
> certified
> installer, "to
> get the guys certified". We talked
> about the course & I
> asked,"When are
> you taking the test you don't have
> the experience". His
> reply was;
> September, & as for the hands on 
> experience, he told me they
> have a
> generic grid tie system that they assemble &
> unassembled a few times
> that
> "met the hands on requirements". I asked
> what about the time frame of
>
> work?, to which he replied that " the instructor &
> the IBEW were
> pressuring
> NABCEP to wave this requirements!. 
> I am aware that there is a
> shortage of "Properly
> Trained" installers but if
> the above is true then
> once again. OUR NABCEP credentials
> are being watered
> downed to benefit a
> few! 
> NABCEP & the teacher (contractual obligations?) profit
> by waving
> these
> requirements, but the public & those of us who have
> HONESTLY met
> the
> requirements LOSE!
> Where is the NABCEP representative on the board?
> Are you
> involved during
> these discussions?What is your response to this?
> 
> Are these board discussions involving the whole board?
> Perhaps this
> another
> one of the boards secret meetings that "aren't
> secret"? Doesn't
> the board
> have a responsibility to the folks who have become
> certified,
> maintaining
> the acme of standards in the installation field?
> Is this a
> discussion that was slated for the annual
> meeting? Hummm, the test
> is in
> September & the annual meeting is in October.
> Would someone "in the know"
> like to respond to
> this?
>  
> We already discussed the lack of
> "transparency of the
> NABCEP board" early
> this year. I seem to remember
> being told "the Wrench
> list was NOT the place
> to have these
> discussions".
> When we hear about this kind of thing, from outside the
>
> NABCEP organization,
> anyplace is a good place to not only question the
> board,
> but also to discuss
> it!
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> <mailto:Tump at hughes.net> Tump at hughes.net        
> <http://www.swnl.net/>
>
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