[RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks

Thu Sep 4 05:39:33 PDT 2008

Dave and others building your own tanks

There are a number of companies that reline industrial tanks with these 
materials.

For many years, actually since '79, I used Poly tanks from Chem-tainer, but 
found there rigidity limiting. I like lots of storage for my preferred large 
tank drainback, and too often found myself removing and replacing door 
frames to gain access to storage tank locations.
I was aware of a previous product--from Maine I think-- that used a rigid 
foam, outer tension band covering and flexible liner, that was taken off the 
market after failures.So I have been very cautious about how these tanks are 
implemented. For this reason, so as not to see unnecessary learning 
experiences that might cause negative reactions to flexible liner tanks, I 
prefer to work with wrenches collaboratively, as I have done with Travis, to 
refine the product. For a successful tank in the long run, the liner 
material is only part of the system. The shape of the tank--cylindrical, and 
how that cylinder is created-- the heat exchanger details--based on vertical 
SS submerged tanks-- the outer tension band , penetration and sensor 
details, etc all need to be correct.

How will you be building the basic tank? This is the detail that first got 
my attention when Travis mentioned to use of ICF's, which caused me to post 
on this list some cautions about temperature limits when using EPS foam for 
the tank shape and insulation.

Take Care--no need to reinvent the wheel

Ken

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Palumbo" <dave at independentpowerllc.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks

> Hello Ken,
>
> Can I get information from you on the PVC material you are using for 
> lining
> your tanks? Where to buy it etc.
> I need to be making a decision and buying liner material within the next
> week, or two.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ken
> Schaal
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:47 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks
>
>
>
>
> For the last 5 years or so we  have produced our own tanks, from 150 gal 
> to
> 4000, so far. We provided an 800 gal tank for Travis, and his shop tank
> built with ICF's left over from the shop construction,used the same
> fabricated liner.
> We use industrial quality, flexible PVC that is fabricated to fit the
> cylindrical form of the tank. The material, when used in typical varying
> temperature applications such as solar/wood systems, with maximum temps
> under 180, will have a useful life of 15-25+ years. The hotter the storage
> the more the material will become rigid. That alone will not necessarily
> mean leaks, as the wall of the tank has very low expansion/contraction 
> rate.
> The other key to longevity is that we use vertical Stainless Steel tank[s]
> for heat exchange to DHW. Since these tanks have rounded ends, they can 
> sit
> on the bottom of the larger outer tank-- with the flexible liner-- and not
> stress the liner material. Other needed copper coil HE's can be supported
> from the DHW tank and piping.
>
> They are completely knock down to 4' wide, 4-6" thick sides that ship flat
> but can be formed to a cylinder, with bottom and top rigid foam 
> insulation.
> Combined with the flexible, and therefore shipped folded flat liner, the
> components can be carried thru any doorway or access that a person can get
> thru. Even the 4000 gal tank was built that way.
>
> We have considered putting these on the market, and would be interested in
> wrenches experiences and needs, and any other input.
>
> We have had no failures, leaks, etc in over 5 years of experience.
>
> Ken Schaal
> CommonWealth Solar,LLC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Palumbo" <dave at independentpowerllc.com>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks
>
>
>> Ken,
>>
>> Appear to be leaking from where heat exchangers contact bottom.
>> I do not know the specific tank temps as these were not my tanks, or
>> customers tanks.
>> No, sidewall penetrations.
>>
>> What tank lining material have you worked with? And how have they been
>> holding up?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ken
>> Schaal
>> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:27 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks
>>
>>
>> Dave and others-
>>
>> Where and how do these leaks occur?
>> Stress at points of contact with bottom of copper coils?
>> Deterioration of the EPDM over time? at what average and maximum temps?
>> Sidewall penetrations below water level?
>>
>> Other issues?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ken Schaal
>> CommonWealth Solar
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Palumbo" <dave at independentpowerllc.com>
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Water Tanks
>>
>>
>>> We have experience with STSS tank's. Lot's of Tarm's installed around
>>> here
>>> in the past 10 years with that tank. Too many of the tanks leak after 8
>>> to
>>> 10 years. That's why we decided to make our own tank.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Jeff
>>> Blick
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:28 PM
>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 95
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hiya Dave,
>>> We installed an STSS tank at a very large thermal system in Colorado 
>>> this
>>> past winter.  Check out their website, excellent product.  If nothing
>>> else
>>> this will give you a jumping off point in your research efforts.  The
>>> website is stsscoinc.com.  Good to hear from you the other day...talk to
>>> you
>>> soon.......
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Blick
>>> PV installer
>>> Sunlight Solar Inc.
>>> 4 NW Franklin
>>> Bend, OR 97701
>>> direct: 541-306-4196
>>> fax: 541-322-1911
>>> jeff.blick at sunlightsolar.com
>>> www.sunlightsolar.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 10:37 AM
>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 95
>>>
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: Hot water tank liner recommendations? (David Palumbo)
>>>   2. Re: Hot water tank liner recommendations? (Aaron Wellendorf)
>>>   3. Sunny Boy 6000U (marco)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:25:53 -0400
>>> From: "David Palumbo" <dave at independentpowerllc.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot water tank liner recommendations?
>>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <DJEBJJALDIMBNFIAMJMCKEEFDHAA.dave at independentpowerllc.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Wrenches,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a recommendation for a waterproof material to line a 
>>> 950
>>> gallon hot water storage tank? This insulated storage tank will have 
>>> heat
>>> exchange coils from a wood fired Tarm boiler as well as from SHW
>>> collectors.
>>> The liner must be able to withstand temperatures of 180 degrees F.
>>>
>>> We have had recommendations that include EDPM roofing membrane, and pond
>>> liner material http://www.firestonesp.com/pondgard.asp?sub=b1a and
>>> http://www.firestonebpe.com/lining/tech_data/tech_guidelines/_down/_en/T
>>> and
>>> http://www.firestonebpe.com/lining/tech_data/tech_guidelines/_down/_en/T
>>>
>>> Also, there is a concern that these tank liners have leaked in the past
>>> because the bottom of the tank liner was eventually penetrated due to
>>> poor
>>> protection from the stress of having the copper heat exchanger coils
>>> sitting
>>> on it. I'm wondering if closed cell blue(or pink) board insulation would
>>> be
>>> a good choice for this duty. Will it hold up over the years at temps up
>>> to
>>> 180F? As an alternative we could mill up some local Hemlock wood to
>>> separate
>>> the coils from the liner. Hemlock has been used for years to build 
>>> spring
>>> boxes out of, the reputation being "that as long as the wood stays wet 
>>> it
>>> will last for decades".
>>>
>>> And, is there a water treatment product that we should add to the 
>>> storage
>>> tank that will help protect the liner from breaking down over the years?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your time,
>>>
>>> Dave Palumbo
>>> Independent Power LLC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:28:06 -0700
>>> From: "Aaron Wellendorf" <Aaron at stellarenergy.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot water tank liner recommendations?
>>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <352B2228A318104184C8BD2F4B0996E3014D871D at dcpserver2.DCPS2.local>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> I would ask that you contact Stephen Rhoades at Burke Industries: (800)
>>> 669-7010 x406, www.burkeind.com. Burke Industries is manufacturer of
>>> Hypalon, one of the best single ply membrane roofing products. The same
>>> (or similar) products are used for reservoir liners, pond liners,
>>> waterproofing underground homes, etc. If you need to set something on
>>> the membrane such as a heat exchanger coil, then have a pre-made walkpad
>>> heat welded under the area of the coil. The walkpads are several times
>>> thicker than the membrane itself and are made for rough service areas.
>>> Stephen really helped me a lot on one of my large commercial projects.
>>>
>>> Aaron Wellendorf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:53:30 -1000
>>> From: "marco" <marco at pvthawaii.com>
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy 6000U
>>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Message-ID: <BDEAF5FED48B49C0AB18D28476C0CDB8 at marcohp>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Amigos y amigas,
>>>
>>> I'm looking for a new or simply working old-style SMA SB 6000U.  Might
>>> anyone have one they'd be willing sell me?  If so, please contact me
>>> off-list.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> marco
>>>
>>> Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President
>>> Electrical Contractor License C-26351
>>> 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
>>> Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
>>> (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
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>>
>>
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