[RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

Sun Aug 3 21:26:21 PDT 2008

Still using a standard type charger, 3 ph, 480 volt
They start at 100 amp and go down from there.

We replaced a high frequency charger that was no longer doing the job with a
standard charger at one site. The hi freq would start at 110 amp and run for
a while then remove the surface charge and readjust for the changed
readings. It just never seemed to get the battery charged the way it needed
to be done. (The way we do it) An Eq charge will hold at the what is the top
voltage for 3 - 5 hours, but nowhere near what we use for an EQ voltage.
These cells are in a 4 x 5 layout in each pack and I have found a 25 degree
difference from the outer cells to the inner cells. There is no such thing
available as temp compensation in any of these chargers.
The Hi freq chargers have no transformers and a real hi frequency noise when
running. Nothing like 3 stages or anything like that.

Good night,
Bob

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 9:46 PM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:

> Hi bob,
> Wow now thats unusual!
>
> So have you figured out a better charger or are using a IBE or similar?
>
> jay
>
>  On Aug 3, 2008, at 6:02 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>
>  The 80 volt battery banks are not on inverters, sorry I didn't mention
> that.
> They are 2 - 20 cell packs in series for 80 volts total.
> These power a Zamboni. I didn't know what one of those was either when they
> called me to work on the batteries 10 or so years ago.
> These are the machines that groom the ice on skating rinks, in most cases
> you can't use an engine inside a building anymore, so they are going
> electric. I did put out some feelers a few years ago about building a 3
> stage charger to charge them. Many are still using the transformer based,
> taper type charger we got away from years ago.
>
> It's another cool toy I get to play with.
>
> Later,
> Bob
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:
>
>> HI Bob,
>> What are you using 80v battery banks for or which inverters anyway?
>>
>> Would be great for larger systems.
>>
>> thanks,
>> jay
>> peltz power
>>
>>
>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:18 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>>
>>  When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the points
>> mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per watt from the
>> battery bank
>> (T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80% discharge
>> then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off grid system at all.
>> We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and returning
>> it daily.
>>
>> My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery needs to
>> be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a "memory" so to speak.
>> I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run down to 50
>> -60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to stir up the electrolyte
>> so you can get an accurate reading with a hydrometer.
>> Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get stirred
>> up occasionally.
>> I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the bottom
>> of the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably good. That is
>> from the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom than the top and just
>> working on the bottom of the plates in the battery. This is not a "fun"
>> project and usually results in some trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.
>>
>> I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily for 5
>> months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple freshening charges
>> and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of these are hi acid batteries that
>> are in the specific gravity range or 1.325 or more when fully charged
>> instead of the usual 1.265 -1.270 that we are used to seeing.
>>
>> I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I maintain
>> and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
>> I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the end of
>> their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small a battery bank
>> and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's cycle life limit far
>> sooner than a larger bank would have if treated well.
>>
>> Good night,
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>> When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in a
>>> offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled even
>>> deeper than that?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> jay
>>> peltz power
>>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>>>
>>>  A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries
>>> like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then charge
>>> them up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up the peak
>>> voltage and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these
>>> thoughts are superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts.
>>>
>>> Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take longer
>>> than the available solar time has to get them to the top and hold them
>>> there..
>>> Have the controllers settings changed?
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar <
>>> allan at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Wrenches,
>>>> In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104
>>>> A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's
>>>> system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early
>>>> 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the
>>>> generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most
>>>> days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
>>>> temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly
>>>> seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk
>>>> and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous
>>>> EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system
>>>> is otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close
>>>> attention to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance
>>>> (with one possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally
>>>> warm temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC
>>>> reduction in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list,
>>>> and also request advice from Surrette Battery.
>>>>
>>>> Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
>>>> I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
>>>> until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing
>>>> indicated
>>>> holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three
>>>> weeks
>>>> ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
>>>> maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
>>>> voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted
>>>> equalizing
>>>> on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday,
>>>> with
>>>> clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So,
>>>> the
>>>> question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this
>>>> set
>>>> for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that
>>>> these
>>>> batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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